Posted Wed Apr 20, 2005 4:51 pm GMT by JFG
Alright, I want some honest feedback on this move I made head to head in a live tourny.
My opponent had me covered about 2.5-3x over. He was fairly cautious, and protected his hands when he hit one. He got his big stack by taking down a lot of little pots when he hit top pair, and by getting idiot callers when he bet strong with a good hand.
Blinds were 800/400, I had about 8500 in chips. I got dealt Q9 spades.
He raised it to 2000. I called.
Flop came Kc Qc 6c.
He bet 1800.
I'm thinking with his preraise bet, and his bet with this flop, he's not holding a club but has hit a pair. He wants this pot now.
I sat there for a minute seeing that I have middle pair, but I'm thinking he has the king. I pushed all in, trusting my instincts that were telling me he had no club, and wanted the pot now.
He called while saying, "this is probably a stupid move."
He had Kh 5d.
I put him on a hand like that... one that I couldn't see him calling on because it would make me too strong. One club and I'm not in too bad of shape. Two and he's dead. K and almost any kicker and he's drawing dead.
It ended up being the right call, and it ended the tournament.
My question is, based on my read (which was dead on), was I right to think that he would forfeit the hand, sit on his big stack, and wait for a better time to knock me out?
Did you know that participating in a poker forum can help you improve your own game? Be it by sharing experiences or simply asking for help, participation in a forum helps you focus and keep 'on topic' which will help you improve your game. You can learn from other players feedback and from their experiences. Why the THP poker forums? We offer one of the best managed texas holdem poker forums available, and the community within is far more friendly than those typicaly found on other sites. We've made a 'lurkers edition' of the poker forum available here on Holdem Poker Online, but we encourage all visitors to register and join in on the conversations on TexasHoldem-Poker.com
Posted Wed Apr 20, 2005 6:15 pm GMT by Iron Butt
| Quote: | | My question is, based on my read (which was dead on), was I right to think that he would forfeit the hand, sit on his big stack, and wait for a better time to knock me out? |
Apparently not.  You're saying you expected him to tighten up? You mention that he protected his hands and won a lot of pots with top pair, looks like he stuck with his plan. Also, good players know your hand values rise (i.e. play looser) heads up, seems he was a reasonably good player.
I would have waited for a better shot. I'll make moves with second pair heads up, but I like to either be driving the betting or less aggression from my opponent to make that move.
Posted Wed Apr 20, 2005 7:20 pm GMT by howzit
(1) Fold preflop or come over the top. . . stack size vs. blind size doesn't allow for creativity.
(2) Great read and great instincts BUT you didn't realize your stack isn't big enough to push him off top pair. quick math: 2000 x 2 preflop + 1,800 x 2 flop + 4,700 on top = 12,300 or 2.6 to 1 to call and to decide whether hand is good or not.
Your move is something I'd do w/the big stack and playing on the bubble.
Posted Thu Apr 21, 2005 1:55 am GMT by JFG
Howzit, thanks for that reply. I admit that a lot of my play is on feel, and my poker math is solid yet. I was starting to think along the same lines when I was typing it out and reading over the numbers.
Thanks for the input.
Posted Fri Apr 22, 2005 8:27 am GMT by 6200
| JFG wrote: | Alright, I want some honest feedback on this move I made head to head in a live tourny.
My opponent had me covered about 2.5-3x over. He was fairly cautious, and protected his hands when he hit one. He got his big stack by taking down a lot of little pots when he hit top pair, and by getting idiot callers when he bet strong with a good hand.
Blinds were 800/400, I had about 8500 in chips. I got dealt Q9 spades.
He raised it to 2000. I called.
Flop came Kc Qc 6c.
He bet 1800.
I'm thinking with his preraise bet, and his bet with this flop, he's not holding a club but has hit a pair. He wants this pot now.
I sat there for a minute seeing that I have middle pair, but I'm thinking he has the king. I pushed all in, trusting my instincts that were telling me he had no club, and wanted the pot now.
He called while saying, "this is probably a stupid move."
He had Kh 5d.
I put him on a hand like that... one that I couldn't see him calling on because it would make me too strong. One club and I'm not in too bad of shape. Two and he's dead. K and almost any kicker and he's drawing dead.
It ended up being the right call, and it ended the tournament.
My question is, based on my read (which was dead on), was I right to think that he would forfeit the hand, sit on his big stack, and wait for a better time to knock me out? |
First, dont call Q 9 in a raised pot for 25% of your stack, in fact dont call with that hand at all. Second using rough numbers hes invested 4k and you put him all in with your 8k, so its only 4k to call for 12k pot and he has top pair and he would still have 17k chips left after the call, hes not going to fold that.
Posted Fri Apr 22, 2005 9:35 am GMT by Always_Bored
| 6200 wrote: |
First, dont call Q 9 in a raised pot for 25% of your stack, in fact dont call with that hand at all. Second using rough numbers hes invested 4k and you put him all in with your 8k, so its only 4k to call for 12k pot and he has top pair and he would still have 17k chips left after the call, hes not going to fold that. |
its heads up though, you cant wait for aces. I would have made a move preflop. Reraise all in and force him to make the decision.
Posted Fri Apr 22, 2005 9:41 am GMT by Dave B
I agree-fold Q9. It is ok to raise w/ Q9 heads up, it is dangerous to call a raise w/ Q9.
Posted Fri Apr 22, 2005 9:49 am GMT by 6200
| Always_Bored wrote: | | 6200 wrote: |
First, dont call Q 9 in a raised pot for 25% of your stack, in fact dont call with that hand at all. Second using rough numbers hes invested 4k and you put him all in with your 8k, so its only 4k to call for 12k pot and he has top pair and he would still have 17k chips left after the call, hes not going to fold that. |
its heads up though, you cant wait for aces. I would have made a move preflop. Reraise all in and force him to make the decision. |
sigh 
Posted Sat Apr 23, 2005 10:44 am GMT by tame_deuces
Lay it down. You described him as a tight player, and he raised both preflop and on the flop + he has got you covered several times over.
Calling with Q9 is not too good either, push it or fold it. I would go for fold, you still got some hands coming before the blinds eat you up.
Posted Sat Apr 23, 2005 1:07 pm GMT by snoogins47
I think calling with most hands preflop for 25% of your stack heads up is wrong. Maybe pairs, and big aces: hands that have showdown value after the flop anyway... with Q9, you really do need to push or fold,
I don't think there's a lot of hands he'll incorrectly fold to your push, but if you did think that, or hands that he'll incorrect call with, then you push is good.
Two things I want to stress: You guessed his cards right, but if he had a club, or flopped a flush, or had KK, we wouldn't be reading this post. But more importantly, knowing what cards your opponent has isn't the entire "read" so to speak: knowing how your opponent will react to you is just as important, and it's clearly something that none of us can answer with any certainty without knowing your opponent. I guess random conjecture on the issue is helpful though, and I think by far the largest mistake you made in this hand was preflop.
Posted Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:00 pm GMT by JFG
Thanks for the reply snoogins.
After reading these replies and dwelling on it, I realize that it was a pretty bad move and screamed desperation.
Better luck next time. :D
|
|
