Posted Fri Apr 22, 2005 9:40 am GMT by Skribbles
I play $2/4 limit at Stars and do fairly well at it. 1 aspect I'm still unsure about is whether or not to bet my draws. Example: 4 handed pot. You hold Axs, you hit a 4 flush on the flop. Do you bet it / re-raise / call down / check? Same instance with open-ended straights on the flop. I find myself going all ways on it. If I have a feeling I'm going to hit my nut flush, I'll try and cap everytime. Other times I just know that my 5th card just won't come so I just call down. With open-ended straights I will always just call down if I feel like chasing and its worth it to, unless I think I can steal the pot, but thats a different story.
Thoughts?
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Posted Fri Apr 22, 2005 9:45 am GMT by howzit
As a general rule, OOP i check my draws.
Posted Fri Apr 22, 2005 10:08 am GMT by Dave B
I bet my draw because it helps to disguise the hand. Ax suited, 4 to the flush, 4-5 way action, bet, if raised, just call or raise if you think your overcards are good. If you hit your flush, check and pray someone hit or wants to represent the flush, then check raise turn or river depending on how many are in the pot.
Posted Fri Apr 22, 2005 10:10 am GMT by 6200
I almost always bet my draws, I mostly play six handed.
Posted Fri Apr 22, 2005 10:19 am GMT by Always_Bored
Bet them. If everyone folds you win without hitting your draw. If you get callers you still have a fair amount of outs. And if you hit you are disguised because you bet the flop so it may pay off more when you hit. Reraise I generally call unless its too big then just fold.
Posted Fri Apr 22, 2005 10:42 am GMT by suitedaces84
Bet odds, my friend. With the four-flush you will see the river 99% of the time. So it's correct to factor in the next two cards, unlike pot odds and implied odds where you only use one. It comes out to about 35% or 2:1. 2:1 is the number to look at here. It means you need two callers to make your bet EV, more than two and it will be +EV.
Example one:
-I my bet four flush, 4 call me
-I invested $2
-I'll get back 35% of $10 (that's $3.50)
-Betting this is profitable
Example two:
-I limp with AsJs, aggressive guy right behind me raises, I call (5-handed)
-flop K, rag, rag (two spades)
-I bet he raises, three others fold
-Not profitable to bet there (a check-raise however would not be a bad idea)
Example three:
-I flop an open-ended straight in LP (rainbow board)
-EP bets, 3 callers, I raise, EP 3-bets, 2 callers, I cap.
-I invest $8
-I get back 30% of $34 (that's $10.20)
-The point of this one: if it's worth raising with a draw, then it's usually worth capping with.
So the idea is to get one of two things
-As many callers as possible
-No callers, sometimes by betting draws you can actually take the pot without hitting
Things to look for before betting draws
-might it get raised behind me
-could I be drawing dead
-how many of my outs are actually good (if the board is suited or paired a open-ended straight isn't the same)
Other benefits of betting draws include:
-bad players are much less likely to put you on a draw if you bet
-by betting you make the pot bigger and make it tougher for oppoents to fold (your implied odds will be better)
-card stealing, if the turn is a brick you can often get a free river
On the flop:
Open-ended straight 2.5:1
flush draw 2:1
On the turn:
Open-ended straight 5:1
flush draw 4:1
It's rare to have bet odds on the turn.
Posted Fri Apr 22, 2005 10:44 am GMT by suitedaces84
Edit: double post, deleted
Posted Fri Apr 22, 2005 10:47 am GMT by Always_Bored
| suitedaces84 wrote: | On the turn:
Open-ended straight 5:1
flush draw 4:1
It's rare to have bet odds on the turn. |
thats another reason to bet the flop. To get the pot big enough so you do have odds to call a bet on the turn.
Posted Fri Apr 22, 2005 10:51 am GMT by Skribbles
Well thanks very much guys. Excellent info.
Posted Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:28 am GMT by Soup_dog
I have the cards preflop that look like they could draw to something.... (i.e suited connectors ) I will usually bet 3xBB in mid to late position. After the flop... I will almost always bet 4xBB. More often then not, I will take it right there. If someone stays with me, depending on the board I may check/fold the turn. At the river I usually bet out again in an attempt to steal the pot.
Of course, this combination works best after establishing a "tight" image.
This play usually works pretty well for me but I know I'm not as strong a player as some others here... any opinions on this play?
Posted Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:29 am GMT by arras
Great post suited aces, I could read stuff like that all day long.
Posted Fri Apr 22, 2005 2:58 pm GMT by howzit
| suitedaces84 wrote: | Bet odds, my friend. With the four-flush you will see the river 99% of the time. So it's correct to factor in the next two cards, unlike pot odds and implied odds where you only use one. It comes out to about 35% or 2:1. 2:1 is the number to look at here. It means you need two callers to make your bet EV, more than two and it will be +EV.
Example one:
-I my bet four flush, 4 call me
-I invested $2
-I'll get back 35% of $10 (that's $3.50)
-Betting this is profitable
Example two:
-I limp with AsJs, aggressive guy right behind me raises, I call (5-handed)
-flop K, rag, rag (two spades)
-I bet he raises, three others fold
-Not profitable to bet there (a check-raise however would not be a bad idea)
Example three:
-I flop an open-ended straight in LP (rainbow board)
-EP bets, 3 callers, I raise, EP 3-bets, 2 callers, I cap.
-I invest $8
-I get back 30% of $34 (that's $10.20)
-The point of this one: if it's worth raising with a draw, then it's usually worth capping with.
So the idea is to get one of two things
-As many callers as possible
-No callers, sometimes by betting draws you can actually take the pot without hitting
Things to look for before betting draws
-might it get raised behind me
-could I be drawing dead
-how many of my outs are actually good (if the board is suited or paired a open-ended straight isn't the same)
Other benefits of betting draws include:
-bad players are much less likely to put you on a draw if you bet
-by betting you make the pot bigger and make it tougher for oppoents to fold (your implied odds will be better)
-card stealing, if the turn is a brick you can often get a free river
On the flop:
Open-ended straight 2.5:1
flush draw 2:1
On the turn:
Open-ended straight 5:1
flush draw 4:1
It's rare to have bet odds on the turn. |
Suited, you've come a long way.
Posted Fri Apr 22, 2005 4:18 pm GMT by suitedaces84
| arras wrote: | | Great post suited aces, I could read stuff like that all day long. |
| howzit wrote: | | Suited, you've come a long way. |
Thanks a lot guys. I really have picked up a lot from this forum.
Posted Fri Apr 22, 2005 7:55 pm GMT by snoogins47
Suited covered my job here, so I'll just say:
Betting a draw with 8+ outs is very rarely a mistake in limit hold'em.
Posted Sun May 29, 2005 3:36 pm GMT by Jackal
When I am drawing to a straight or a flush and it's a weak flop I bet/raise/reraise like their is no tommorrow. You opponents likely have nothing (unless it's play money). Moreover everyone might fold at the end because no one filled their hand or they think you are to strong to call.
I am an aggressive player. the only bad time I have ever seen to raise is when I know i am beat or I would make more by playing slow. Most pro players share this same opinion.
Posted Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:31 pm GMT by matt_h673
| snoogins47 wrote: | Suited covered my job here, so I'll just say:
Betting a draw with 8+ outs is very rarely a mistake in limit hold'em. |
Most definetly agree with you. Very true! 
Posted Thu Jun 16, 2005 1:01 pm GMT by krakajak
With a 4 flush, I may bet or check, depending on who I think will bet. For example, If i'm in the blind, and a pf raiser is on the button, I will bet into him, hoping that a few will call my bet, and that he will raise.
If a pf raiser is to my immediate left, I will check-raise.
If the pot was not raised pf, from LP I will bet if checked to me, and raise if the bettor acted early. If the bettor is close to me, and several players checked before him, I will just call to let them in.
The trickiest is from EP in an unraised pot. I used to bet them, but recently I've had a few instances where I bet, and the player after me raised and drove everyone else out, so lately I've been inclined to check.
Also, I am less inclined to bet and raise a flush draw with a paired board.
Open ended straight draws are even trickier. I play them similarly to flush draws, but if the board is 2 suited, I slow down, unless the field is very big.
Posted Fri Jun 17, 2005 10:52 am GMT by Loonbat
| suitedaces84 wrote: |
It's rare to have bet odds on the turn. |
Play more live 3/6 ... bet odds for days ...
Superior post, btw, Suited.
Posted Sat Jun 18, 2005 3:19 pm GMT by ViperX883
With these draws, you generally want as many people in the pot as possible for action on the later streets, especially in limit. In general, more players means more money. The real trick is to figure how to keep as many players in as possible while getting them to put as much money in the pot as possible. It's not always as simple as bet your draws in limit or anything like that.
For instance, say you are in the BB with Axs. The small blind and three players behind you are also in. After the flop you have four to the flush and the small blind bets into you. Do you raise??? Absolutely NOT!!! Why??? Because then the three players behind you will be forced to cold call 2 bets, which, if they are decent players, they are unlikely to do, especially considering the bets are for EP. In stead, you just call here and let in as many players behind you as possible. Ideally, the first two players behind you call and the third raises, getting more money in there and improving your odds. If teh thrid just calls, so what... you still get great odds on your investment.
Bottom line, many times betting draws takes into accoutn position, how many players are in the pot, how many players are left to act behind you, your pot and implied odds, and so forth. Combine all of these to get the most effective strategy, which is essentially keep the maximum number of players in the hand for the later turns while extracting the maximum amount of money from each player on the flop.
Posted Sat Jun 18, 2005 4:36 pm GMT by TheSalche
| suitedaces84 wrote: |
Thanks a lot guys. I really have picked up a lot from this forum. |
yeah but your tongue is getting suspiciously close to that fan ... you may know a lot about poker, but you need to learn more about fans
Posted Sat Jun 18, 2005 7:15 pm GMT by suitedaces84
What do you think is the fastest way to learn? 
Posted Sun Jun 19, 2005 12:42 am GMT by ViperX883
The limit hold'em section in SS2 by Jennifer Harman is indispensible when it comes to stuff like this. Almost everything is explained very clearly in there. I highly recommend giving that a read if you are interested in getting some idea about when to bet and when to call/check your draws.
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