Good odds for any 2 cards?? |
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Posted Thu Apr 28, 2005 9:53 am GMT by darthsikle
I found myself in a strange situation in a recent tournament.
Six people left. I and the guy to my right were chip leaders with about 140,000 each in chips. I was big and he was small blind. Big was $20,000 and small was $10,000. Short stack was under the gun and goes all in for a little over $40,000. Small blind just calls.
Now it comes to me. I don't really wanna get involved in a pot with the only person that can cripple me. But with $100,000 in the pot, I'd get 5 to 1 on my money. I look down and see absolute garbage. I call anyway and of course we triple the short stack up who is now chip leader...*sheesh*.
I still don't see how I could have avoided calling.
Any thoughts??
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Posted Thu Apr 28, 2005 10:05 am GMT by Dave B
Yeah, he tripled up, but just by winning he was going to have 100k+, 120K doesnt help him that much more. One extra player seeing a flop lowers his odds of winner significantly.
You call.
Posted Thu Apr 28, 2005 10:11 am GMT by Always_Bored
ya, call and check it to the river unless you flop a monster.
As dave said either way he is going to nearly tripple up so you might as well call and give him less of a chance of winning.
The only reason I hate calling in that situation is when the other big stack bluffs you off the pot after the flop. Some people are just retarded.
Posted Thu Apr 28, 2005 10:57 am GMT by Idaho
| Always_Bored wrote: | | The only reason I hate calling in that situation is when the other big stack bluffs you off the pot after the flop. Some people are just retarded. |
Why is that 'retarded'? He has position on you and when you check you are leaving yourself wide open. If I was him I would make you pay for more cards in that position every time.
Posted Thu Apr 28, 2005 11:09 am GMT by Dave B
DONT GET ME STARTED.....THIS IS MY #1 THING THAT MAKES ME WANT START BREAKING SH*T.....
I see this all the time-few remaining or bubble and someone bluffs at no side pot. Why would he bet to push you off???????? Just so that he hopes his A high or worse can beat the all in? What is more important an this point, getting rid of a player or extra chips. 6 left final table, you CHECK DOWN to get rid off the all in. If you get outdrawn, then so be it. If you bet at the pot, make DAMN sure that you have the all in beat. You cant bluff the all in off the pot, so you need to show down a winner anyway.
Now, in this case, the size of the pot makes it somewhat worth taking shot w/ just Ace high, but still, I wouldnt do it.
I see this all the time in SNGs and it only makes sense to bluff a player off the hand if you:
1) have a MONSTER hand and want extra action
2) are colluding and protecting the all in since he is your buddy
3) are a complete and utter moron w/ no poker sense whatsoever
I always rag on guys when I see this-because it HURTS everyone else at the table-not just the player in the pot that folds a potential winner. They sometimes respond, well, I didnt think I could be both of you....or some BS like that.
JUST DONT DO IT.....trust me.
Posted Thu Apr 28, 2005 11:49 am GMT by Always_Bored
| Idaho wrote: | | Always_Bored wrote: | | The only reason I hate calling in that situation is when the other big stack bluffs you off the pot after the flop. Some people are just retarded. |
Why is that 'retarded'? He has position on you and when you check you are leaving yourself wide open. If I was him I would make you pay for more cards in that position every time. |
its not about me, its about the all in. You want to take him out and having two people is better than one. If you bet you better have the all in beat.
Posted Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:40 pm GMT by darthsikle
In my case, we both checked it down to the river.
Posted Thu Apr 28, 2005 1:22 pm GMT by Dias
Yeah, absolutely agree with Dave and Always on this...
Keep those hands in play, 2 people trying to draw to beat is better than one...
Ive seen it MANY times where the person that got pushed out ended up having the hand that would have at minimal beat the all-in player..
and now that all-in player has tripled up and can be a real force....
people that dont call an all-in for such minimal amounts can really irk you...
case in point..
we are 4 handed at end of about a 14 man freezeout....blinds are 500/1000
the BB is all-in for 600, the SB is onlt one left....the other guy plus myself fold to the SB (who is big stack) expecting him to call the extra 100 chips..
he folds...basically doubling the BB up.....BB comes back and wins the tourney. Some people....i tell ya...
Posted Thu Apr 28, 2005 1:52 pm GMT by Always_Bored
| Dias wrote: |
the BB is all-in for 600, the SB is onlt one left....the other guy plus myself fold to the SB (who is big stack) expecting him to call the extra 100 chips..
he folds...basically doubling the BB up.....BB comes back and wins the tourney. Some people....i tell ya... |
that pisses me off more than anything in holdem. seriously, either way you are doubling him up. One way you have a chance to take him out. It reminds me of the time i saw the worst heads up ever.
home game. (im going to move the decimal places so the numbers are easier to read there was 10000 on the table but we I will say 100) player A has 92 player B has 8. Blinds are 4 and 8. Player B is BB and player A folds his Small blind giving Player 12. Player B knows he is going all in on the next hand with pretty much anything. He does and Player A folds his big blind to him. Now player B has 20. Player A had 2 chances to take him out for only a half a blind more investment. The next 4 hands in a row Player B raises with what i assume are mediocre hands at best and player A folds all 4 (after calling the blind on both small blinds) Now player A has 48 to Player Bs 52. In the end Player A gets second when he went to heads up with 92%.
Posted Fri Apr 29, 2005 8:07 am GMT by flafishy
You've hit on MY pet peeve that makes me want to start breaking shiite:
Four people on the bubble, short stack puts his 3.5xBB worth of chips out on an all-in and the guy with the monster big stack folds.
Makes me nuts.
And I see it happen a lot, it seems.
Posted Fri Apr 29, 2005 8:14 am GMT by Dave B
This happened to me last night, one guy raises min and is left w/ 15, I am in the BB w/ K3, one other calls, I call. Flop Kxx, I bet 30 to put them all in (they started w/ like 80), the other guy raises to 100, I call. Turn blank, he bets 200, I call. River blank, check check, he shows 88, my K was the winner and this moron blew 300 in chips and was left w/ 150 when I would have just checked it down.
Posted Fri Apr 29, 2005 8:17 am GMT by Always_Bored
| flafishy wrote: | You've hit on MY pet peeve that makes me want to start breaking shiite:
Four people on the bubble, short stack puts his 3.5xBB worth of chips out on an all-in and the guy with the monster big stack folds.
Makes me nuts.
And I see it happen a lot, it seems. |
makes me more than nuts. Ive seen people fold for a lot less than 3.5X the BB. Like the shortstack going all in for less than double the BB and the BB folding.
Posted Fri Apr 29, 2005 9:13 am GMT by Muck
A hand I played at one of my early tourneys caused this argument. I wasn’t very experienced at that point so left everyone around me to slang it out.
Soon after the freeze out I get AA on the button. The BB is short stacked and I’m sure she’s going to make an all-in raise so I just call.
She does and gets one caller, it folds around to me and I call hoping the caller will bet out after the flop and I can come over the top.
Flop comes rags, he doesn’t bet so I do.
Boom! He starts laying into me while showing that he’s folding AKo. I turn over AA the big blind has QQ, no one improves so I take it.
I think the two points in my defence were that:
- I wasn’t bluffing (although I probably should have raised the all-in pre-flop).
- It was early in the tourney and value of losing a player I consider less than the chips.
Despite this there was much heated discussion all around.
Posted Fri Apr 29, 2005 9:17 am GMT by Dave B
I dont mind betting it, just dont bluff it. Over pair is good enough to bet the pot.
Posted Fri Apr 29, 2005 9:25 am GMT by Always_Bored
| Dave B wrote: | | I dont mind betting it, just dont bluff it. Over pair is good enough to bet the pot. |
exactly. In your situation you figure you have the all in beat and are betting to get more chips out of the not all in player. As long as your not bluffing then its alright to bet.
Posted Fri Apr 29, 2005 10:44 am GMT by Idaho
I see your point about colluding with the other live player to check it down - however I don't see that it is my job to knock people out. I am after your chips as much as the all-ins. Surely from my selfish perspective I have a better chance of beating one hand than two? I wouldn't raise it with total junk - I would have to have some semblance of a hand - bottom pair even.
Posted Fri Apr 29, 2005 10:52 am GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| Idaho wrote: | | I see your point about colluding with the other live player to check it down - however I don't see that it is my job to knock people out. I am after your chips as much as the all-ins. Surely from my selfish perspective I have a better chance of beating one hand than two? I wouldn't raise it with total junk - I would have to have some semblance of a hand - bottom pair even. |
Chips are secondary to real money at this point. Knocking people out should be your ONLY job. If you have a marginal hand, check it down.
Posted Fri Apr 29, 2005 10:59 am GMT by Muck
| Idaho wrote: | | Surely from my selfish perspective I have a better chance of beating one hand than two? |
This is true for the all-in as well and if your cards are poor it’s a double bonus.
Posted Fri Apr 29, 2005 11:59 am GMT by Always_Bored
| Idaho wrote: | | I see your point about colluding with the other live player to check it down - however I don't see that it is my job to knock people out. I am after your chips as much as the all-ins. Surely from my selfish perspective I have a better chance of beating one hand than two? I wouldn't raise it with total junk - I would have to have some semblance of a hand - bottom pair even. |
All your doing is give the short stack a better chance to triple up.
| Idaho wrote: | | I have a better chance of beating one hand than two? |
thats exactly what the short stack all in is thinking so if you keep him against two hands he is more likely to go out. Which is more important than a few chips.
Posted Fri Apr 29, 2005 1:28 pm GMT by groton
you want to knock him out so that there is one less person till you ether A get to Money or B get to the Final Table
Posted Sat Apr 30, 2005 4:46 pm GMT by Idaho
Yeah but what if you have a fair read on both players and you are pretty sure you have them beat?
Posted Mon May 02, 2005 12:02 am GMT by suitedaces84
| Idaho wrote: | | I see your point about colluding with the other live player to check it down - however I don't see that it is my job to knock people out. I am after your chips as much as the all-ins. Surely from my selfish perspective I have a better chance of beating one hand than two? I wouldn't raise it with total junk - I would have to have some semblance of a hand - bottom pair even. |
If you both have enough common sense cullusion won't be necessary. If you really have the best hand you'll win the pot without betting.
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