Posted Sat May 07, 2005 8:01 am GMT by bastun
Hi Folks,
I am a beginner. I am reading Lee Jones book - it is an eye-opener ! One concern I have relates to available software wherby a player can "overlay" on an online pokersite game and consequently garner hand odds, pot odds, advice on playing a live hand etc. Where does this leave us? Is it ubiquitous? Is there any point in playing online if you are up against someone who is just making programmed moves? I love this game! Am I looking at a big problem here?
Advice from "old-timers" much valued.
Cheers
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Posted Sat May 07, 2005 1:41 pm GMT by supafrey
Programmed decisions aren't always the right ones. But yes, there are many programs out there that track not only your stats but your opponents' as well, and advises you on how to act accordingly. They don't in any way actually "see" your cards though, so they are more or less informed guesses. Nothing to worry about usually.
Posted Sat May 07, 2005 2:13 pm GMT by mindgame
I wouldn't so blithely dismiss poker software as "nothing to worry about."
I find the "overlay" concept intriguing, although I've not heard anything about it before...it's certainly plausibe. And, if it functions in a way that both keeps track of your opponents' hands (and their statistical history in prior play) it may be guessing, but it is quite highly informed indeed. It would give you, at the very least, a perfect statistical calculation of your chances--every time you had to make a call/raise/fold decision. Would you know, off the top of your head, your statistical chances p/f with AA when there are two callers in front of you and 3 behind? Or 3 and 2? Or any of the dozens of other situations?
Granted that my example matters little most of the time...but in the later rounds of a tourney, on the bubble...heads up...you name it...a program that gives perfect and instantaneous statistical analysis (and remember, a good one would be able to weight decisions for the relative size of stacks)--that would be a profoundly difficult opponent.
Posted Sat May 07, 2005 2:38 pm GMT by supafrey
Allright, so worry about it then, if you wish. That doesn't change the fact that they exist, do exactly that, and there are no ways to counter them. If you wish to play regardless, go ahead. That's all i'm saying.
Posted Sat May 07, 2005 3:38 pm GMT by age_of_sages
I use an overlay program and it's only good for ring games. I feel it does give me an advantage. It doesn't display pot odds or anything like that, but it does show stats on the other players and their tendancies.
While it is a very useful program by no means are people that use these programs unbeatable, especially if you're good at reading players and situations yourself.
Just remeber, the number never tell the whole story, every situation is different and if you can adjust to that situation you're going to be better than any overlay program.
Posted Sun May 08, 2005 4:30 pm GMT by bastun
I was mainly referring to Poker bots such as Winholdem and Poki. Effectively they play your game for you all the while calculating the best play for a hand at a given moment. In other words, they can play with a statistical accuracy not available to the average unaided player. I now understand that the big sites are detecting the use of these by spying on individual screens to see what apps are running in conjunction with the poker client and , when found, banning the player and freezing accounts. Looking at the Winholdem site I can see that they are offering a work around involving the use of two computers. Clearly, at the very least, it looks like there is the beginnings of a tech escalation war here.
It's all quite worrying!
Cheers
Posted Sun May 08, 2005 5:23 pm GMT by pokerstud69
you think that's bad, check out www.ijustgotbanned.com. they have software to view cards before they come out!
anyone try it yet? quite interested but not so sure until I hear from someone else.
Posted Sun May 08, 2005 5:24 pm GMT by Yeti
| pokerstud69 wrote: | you think that's bad, check out www.getoutspammer.com. they have software to view cards before they come out!
anyone try it yet? quite interested but not so sure until I hear from someone else. |
SPAM
Posted Sun May 08, 2005 5:58 pm GMT by tame_deuces
Spammers come in so many forms, just like gun calibers!
It's a shame they don't meet.
Posted Sun May 08, 2005 8:06 pm GMT by Phil14312
I'm sorry but it seems like any overlay program that attempts to track others' tendencies from previous hands plays is fatally flawed. Unless you play thousands upon thousands upon thousands of hands with a certain player, I would assume the information inaccurate (due to short-term statistical variation).
I hear, when people post propgress updates, about how 1,000 hands is statistically not an accurate representation of a player's ability. Why then would this program work on other player's ablility? It seems to me that it would require so many hands (not all of which go to showdown where we see opponents' hole cards) that it could actually hurt a player relying on it too much.
Correct me if my logic seems flawed to anyone.
Posted Sun May 08, 2005 9:54 pm GMT by Fat Tony
| pokerstud69 wrote: | you think that's bad, check out www.ijustgotbanned.com. they have software to view cards before they come out!
anyone try it yet? quite interested but not so sure until I hear from someone else. |
goodbye jackass!
Posted Mon May 09, 2005 2:25 pm GMT by age_of_sages
Tracking another persons stats isn't as helpful for the session your tracking as it is for the next session. Next time you run into that person, you've already got "notes" on how he plays and you can adjust accordingly. And of course the more you play someone the more the stats help. There's one guy that regularly 3 tables at the stakes I play, so i run into him alot. He's a pretty good player and usually comes out ahead, but after about 1000 hands on him I can pretty much put him on a hand everytime and take his money.
Now granted, anyone who is paying close attention can do the same, but a stats overlay just makes things easier is all I'm saying.
Posted Mon May 09, 2005 3:02 pm GMT by flafishy
It's a high-tech, sterilized version of a paper notebook is all. The big difference is that while you're more likely to write a descriptive player tendency and a detected tell in a notebook, these overlays can only give you the hard, cold statistics from a very small sample size without any interpretation whatsoever.
I can write in my notebook that Player X likes to play suited connectors in EP, and when he decides to make a play at a pot, he can never let his hand go in the face of a small or medium-size raise. If he takes awhile to think before he calls, he doesn't have much. If he calls the raise without hesitation, though, and his hand starts shaking, then he's flopped a monster. The stats overlay will tell you that Player X sees 25% of flops, has a postflop aggression factor of 1.56 and has won 5 BB/100 over 325 observed hands.
Which do you think is more valuable to know?
Posted Mon May 09, 2005 3:02 pm GMT by Soup_dog
I have often thought about trying a "stat" tracking software, but one thing always stops me. What will I do in a live game? I would rather learn who to make the right play and "read" the opponents instead of relying on a program. just my opinion.
Posted Mon May 09, 2005 7:28 pm GMT by Fat Tony
| Soup_dog wrote: | | I have often thought about trying a "stat" tracking software, but one thing always stops me. What will I do in a live game? I would rather learn who to make the right play and "read" the opponents instead of relying on a program. just my opinion. |
WHAAAAT???? how you dare to suggest that people actually learn to play instead of relying on software for instant gratification.
in all seriousness thou, i agree 1000% and have made the same point on multiple occasions.
Posted Tue May 10, 2005 1:34 pm GMT by age_of_sages
I don't disagree with the above points at all, I make it a point to play at sites that don't support my tracking software, that way I do get a feel for reading people on my own.
Stat tracking software is definitely a crutch, but as long as you don't let it be the be all and end all of your game, it is a useful tool.
Posted Fri May 13, 2005 12:38 pm GMT by BeerWench13
| Quote: | | WHAAAAT???? how you dare to suggest that people actually learn to play instead of relying on software for instant gratification. |
Just what I was thinking. 
I'd rather use my brain. It's not as much fun for me if I feel that I let the computer make my decisions. Then all I am is a bankroll for a program. To me it seems that it would be helpful if you are not competent enough to make proper notes. I, however, am pretty good at typing for online players, have a pretty damn good memory (too good the hubby says, since I never forget anything) and it just wouldn't be as much fun for me to have a computer doing it for me. I love the game. To me, a program like that would take away from it.
The upside, though, is when I have a bad run, I could blame the stupid software for making me call that bet when I knew I was beaten. 
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