how do you defeat the loose brainless americans? |
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Posted Thu May 19, 2005 3:45 am GMT by adi
I usually play limit texas 1$/2$. Till a few days ago i've been playing on a british site and most players there are tight or semi-tight so i knew how to profit in most situations. But recently i have joined a site where americans are the majority and most of them at this limit play just about any hand they get. When they all go to the flop with any kind of pocket someone is almost always bound to get a lucky flush or a straight or trips. Forget about playing mind games, they don't care about parting with a few $ so bluffing at low limit is almost worthless against them.
So how can you defeat them? I know they don't win in the long term but they don't lose their money to me either. :x
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Posted Thu May 19, 2005 4:34 am GMT by Muck
I don’t play FL because loose play can be a problem like this and it’s hard to push people off draws when you can’t control the odds. In NL you can bust a call station in a single hand, then sit back and wait for another monster to take the next one with.
NB: You’re really insulting yourself by saying “those idiots that I’m unable to beat”.
Posted Thu May 19, 2005 5:29 am GMT by adi
| Muck wrote: | | NB: You’re really insulting yourself by saying “those idiots that I’m unable to beat”. |
I didn't mean to insult americans( they just seem to be a huge majority of the extra-loose players), I just hate the type of player that has no respect for their own money and will have a go at you with anything. These "idiots" are easy to beat when they are alone or just a few but when there's too many on just one table it's almost impossible to do anything about it because one of them will always have something that is good enough to beat you and they never give up because they couldn't care less if they win or lose. You get KK and raise preflop but they still stay in with 46 or 37 and get a perfect flop that in a sane room would almost always mean nothing. You are right, low limit is impossible to win against several call stations. The problem is their number, not the way they play. It reminds me of the way war is being fought these days. How do you fight someone who drives a truck full with explosives at you and acts like they have nothing to lose? Even worse, what do you do when 7 people do that at the same time? 
Posted Thu May 19, 2005 6:10 am GMT by Muck
| adi wrote: |
low limit is impossible to win against several call stations.
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My problem isn’t with the size of the limit but rather the fact that there is one. If everyone’s calling pre-flop you’ll probably need a lot of strength to win, but that’s okay because all of those calls give you a pot that's offering good odds for straight and flush draws.
Hands with early strength like KK are in trouble because they will not maintain their lead all the way to the showdown when against a full table and there’s nothing you can do to force players out.
I think games like this can be won, but it’s a real grind.
Posted Thu May 19, 2005 7:49 am GMT by Dave B
Do everything you can to eliminate the field. Fold more marginal hands and play more suited connectors or even just connectors.
You should love those stupid Americans, the rest of us get rich off of them. At those limits, they likely arent stupid, just rich or learning.
Posted Thu May 19, 2005 10:14 am GMT by adi
| Dave B wrote: | | You should love those stupid Americans, the rest of us get rich off of them. |
That's great for you because you have the experience to deal with them but i've been playing for about a week and right now it's frustrating because i can't understand how their minds work. It's easier for me to play against tight tactical players of low level because at least i know what to expect from them. Muck, you are right, limit isn't the game where you can murder maniacs with one clean shot, i see what you mean now and killing them little by little takes too long.
Thank you both for your help and if you think of anything else on this please let me know. 
Posted Thu May 19, 2005 10:46 am GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| adi wrote: | | It's easier for me to play against tight tactical players of low level because at least i know what to expect from them. |
If we always knew what the other guy was going to do, it would be a really easy game. Your premium pairs would hold up very nicely.
I'd rather have QJs on the button in a loose passive game. Your variance will be higher, but you'll make a lot more than by peddling your nuts.
Posted Thu May 19, 2005 10:49 am GMT by Loonbat
And realize that NL and Limit hold'em are as different as 5 card stud and Omaha are ... while the betting rules are the only difference, this is the difference which matters.
Some players are good at NL, some at limit, some at both, and many at neither. Pick your game (or games) and learn it/them well. Education is usually not cheap or free, so learn from your losses and don't expect people not to treat low-limit hold'em as a game for drawing. And consider pot odds ... what appears to be someone sucking you out on a horrid draw may be worth it to them mathematically.
Having said that, many players (from all nations) are just idiots ...
-Loon
Posted Thu May 19, 2005 4:52 pm GMT by suitedaces84
The problem here is "schooling". This is where "loose brainless Americans" pad each others odds. One call builds the pot which creates more calls, and more chasing, until someone rivers you. This will cause you to join a poker forum and create a thread entitled 'how do you defeat the loose brainless Americans?'.
Example:
I have K J, the flop is A T 3 rainbow, it's five handed. If you bet and two fold to me my pot odds will be bad and my implied odds will be boarderline (I'll only be able to get paid by one person if I hit). If all two call my pot odds are good and implied odds are great, this may cause the player behind me to call with Tx hoping to hit two pair or trips.
The key to beating these games is understanding pot equity--how much of the pot is "yours". By the way these games are much easier to beat then tight games, I search for them constantly.
Example if I've got A  K (five handed) I'd much rather see a flop of J 4  7 then a flop of K  2 6  . Two reasons for this with my four flush I'll have pot equity of 35% or better. It's likely that top pair will be beaten more than 65% of the time with four others in the hand. The other factor is reverse implied odds. If my hand doesn't improve by the river it will be easy to let go of the busted draw, it will be very difficult to let go of TPTK even if it's a loser. With a draw you know you can outplay your oppoent on the river. With a made hand that is not true. A four flush or open ended straight are great hands to bet and raise with on the flop when it's four or five handed.
There's a few things I would guess you're doing wrong
1) Not putting enough stock in drawing hands
2) Not folding when you've clearly been outdrawn. If player A and B have been calling your bets on the flop and turn, then on the river player A bets and player B raises, you have to realize one of the two hit something better than top pair. By paying off two or more bets on the river you're making to profitable for them to chase. I'm not saying fold to one bet everytime you get scared, but when passive players start betting and raising common sense has to kick in and tell you you're beat.
3) Check the river. If you've got several players hanging around it's likely that one has outdrawn you or was slowplaying.
4) Realize that the swings in a loose game will be much greater than the swings in a tight game. So stay patient.
5) One little trick: if you flop top pair you can look for a check-raise to push more players off their hand. You can check from EP and then raise a bet from LP this will force most of the table to cold call two. Of course, this doesn't always work.
6) As someone else mentioned play more drawing hands (suited connecters low pocket pairs) especially from late position or if the table doesn't raise preflop.
Posted Thu May 19, 2005 5:34 pm GMT by tame_deuces
Well put above. :D
Loose is heaven, since you often got the odds to chase the really strong hands, and people will pay you off when you hit them.
Don't mix up tight-aggressive playing styles or 'proper poker' with the weak-tight you see in a lot of online european low-limit tables. *edit* Yes, I know there are tons of honourable exceptions.
I'll rather play against a weak-tight than a loose-aggressive any day off the week. I
Posted Fri May 20, 2005 4:38 am GMT by adi
amazing post, suitedaces84, i see what you mean.
i've always been shocked by the gap between the smart people in america and the rest of this country's population, zombies with no idea(or will to know) what's going on in the world if it's not within 5 blocks from where their live. though i'm sure any pro just loves naive wasp's with deep pockets sitting at their table.
thanks again 
Posted Fri May 20, 2005 7:56 am GMT by Dave B
adi, I think you need to come to America and spend some time. You may be surprised. We have idiots, like most countries, but it sounds like you might be a little misinformed about the "average" American. Whatever that means.
Idiocy and extremism makes the news, it does not reflect the general population. Also, idiots are funny, they entertain the rest of us.
Posted Fri May 20, 2005 9:56 am GMT by tame_deuces
Can't we all bash the french instead?
I mean....c'mon....the french!
Posted Fri May 20, 2005 10:08 am GMT by Dave B
You mean those sniveling little surrender monkeys? Im on board with that!
Posted Fri May 20, 2005 3:30 pm GMT by Iron Butt
I'm half French by ancestry, and y'all can eat my crusty French loaf.
How about you Dave? What racial and cultural slurs apply to you?
Posted Fri May 20, 2005 3:39 pm GMT by Dave B
3/8 Norwegian
1/4 German
1/4 Irish
1/8 English
100% American
So I guess you can say I am stubborn, I like beer, whiskey, and spending time in pubs.
Posted Fri May 20, 2005 4:57 pm GMT by Iron Butt
Whatever, I was more trying to make a point about being a bigot, never mind, don't have all day for this. In fact let's just get to the point: Mods, is bigotry allowed here?
Posted Fri May 20, 2005 5:53 pm GMT by MasterShake
| Iron Butt wrote: | I'm half French by ancestry, and y'all can eat my crusty French loaf.
How about you Dave? What racial and cultural slurs apply to you? |
I'm of French ancestry as well, except my ancestors were extremely intelligent. How do I know that? They moved here. :D
Posted Fri May 20, 2005 6:21 pm GMT by snoogins47
| Quote: | | low limit is impossible to win against several call stations. |
Wrong.
I'm close to 3/4 German myself. Really doesn't leave me much room for joking except the patently offensive.
Posted Sat May 21, 2005 12:07 pm GMT by tame_deuces
| Dave B wrote: | 3/8 Norwegian
|
Some viking genes to explain the lust for plundering and pillaging at the poker table? 
Posted Tue May 24, 2005 2:19 pm GMT by Imajica1975
"how do you defeat the loose brainless americans?"
"That's how you beat em, Butch... They keep underestimating you."
-Butch from Pulp Fiction
Posted Wed May 25, 2005 4:54 am GMT by adi
don't worry about it, even though i started playing 1-2 weeks ago (after watching a discovery channel show) i'm well up against them. and i imagine some of them have been doing this for years. one very average nation with a few brilliant men leading it. and i'm not talking about the bush type retards who get the votes because americans must always elect an "image"(would someone looking like sharon or putin get elected in the us? never ), it's the bald fat ugly cheney's and greenspan's from behind the scenes that have brought your nation where it is today. just wanted to explain what i meant by all that...
and back to poker, i met one crazy american a few days ago on party. he kept playing every hand and raising with pockets like 86. i watched him for a few minutes than when i got a good hand i gave him a good kick(it was a limit game so i couldn't finish him with one blow). a few hands later i won another showdown but whenever he was down to a just a few dollars he kept reloading (these idiots seem to have huge resources, which is lovely once you learn how to deal with them). last hand now: i get AK club suited, a raising war follows and i isolate him, i get 2 more clubs on the flop + K and then another club on the turn. of course he keeps raising and raising with nothing till he has 0.... THE END.
| Dave B wrote: | | You should love those stupid Americans, the rest of us get rich off of them. |
i see what you mean now. they are perfect fish: loose play and even looser pockets. :D
| Imajica1975 wrote: | "That's how you beat em, Butch... They keep underestimating you."
-Butch from Pulp Fiction |
"Nobody ever went broke by underestimating the intelligence of the American people." P.T. Barnum
Posted Wed May 25, 2005 7:15 am GMT by Dave B
Bush has BA from Yale and an MBA from Harvard, I will put him up against you anytime.
Posted Wed May 25, 2005 7:55 am GMT by adi
| Dave B wrote: | | Bush has BA from Yale and an MBA from Harvard, I will put him up against you anytime. |
have you ever watched him? bush can barely spell his own name, he would have been flipping burgers if his daddy wasn't who he is. ivy league schools, although some of the best in the world, have very loose “legacy” admission policies that give spots to the children of parents whose donations keep the schools running. some bright kid missed his chance that year simply because the bush dinasty had money and influence.
he called the greeks grecians for god's sake. do i have to find one of those many sites with all his idiotic quotes? this is what i don't like about americans, they defend any little thing they've got simply because it's theirs. even some democrats will defend scum like bush against foreign criticism, they take it too personal and the truth isn't important anymore once they feel like someone is "attacking" their country. i don't have any problem saying that the leaders of my country are mostly idiots and/or crooks. you should try stepping down from your ivory tower sometimes, being a little humble isn't a crime 
Posted Wed May 25, 2005 8:00 am GMT by Dave B
do you think if Einstein or Sir Isaac Newton had to give speeches they would do it flawlessly?
No, I do not think that Bush is one of the great intellectuals of mankind, but I do think that he is brighter than 95% of the people out there. He has a very high IQ and an deep understanding of a ton of issues (agree with his positions or not).
Judging ones intellect by verbal gaffs is pretty close minded. How would you measure up if you had cameras and recordings of every word you say, waiting for you to slip?
Posted Wed May 25, 2005 8:08 am GMT by Jernej Zorec
your stupidity is far beyond that of an american brainless guy.
Not only are most of them brainless just enough not to care about anything, which is not a bad thing at all, but they are also not obsessed about how stupid people in other countries are.
While u on the other hand judge entire nation by one man.
that is like we would say all Romaninas are murdering communists who intentionally kill their own people, just becouse u hapened to have one crazy leader.
u should really ask yourself who is brainless.
Posted Wed May 25, 2005 9:09 am GMT by tame_deuces
| adi wrote: | | you should try stepping down from your ivory tower sometimes, being a little humble isn't a crime |
Nothing in your posts was neither humble nor objective. It was opinionated and based on your own personal assumptions. Furthermore the second note is dotted by speculated anecdotes about 'some' people, 'some' democrats and 'some' schools - please refrain from that because it really sounds like you are just making it up as you go because it correlates with your own assumptions. Whereas the first note's big point is a story of a poker-encounter with a single american, which really is pointless. Try judging people individually instead of basing judgement race and/or nationality.
You might as well as have called the greeks for grecians. Because what content you had in your notes were smothered pretty badly by how they were delivered.
And your P.T Barnum quote is actually pretty amusing, because your posts are filled with Barnum logic, but his marketing strategies were much much better. But then again;he was an american.
Posted Wed May 25, 2005 10:44 am GMT by Fat Tony
let's all cut out the insults please or i'll be forced to closed the thread.
Posted Wed May 25, 2005 11:02 am GMT by MasterShake
| Fat Tony wrote: | | let's all cut out the insults please or i'll be forced to closed the thread. |
You're fat.
Posted Wed May 25, 2005 2:20 pm GMT by Fat Tony
i suppose you think you are trying to be funny when in reality you are in fact being a jackass. since my simple request is not being taken seriously...
THREAD CLOSED.
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