Posted Sat May 21, 2005 11:23 am GMT by TheDagmar
First time Post
Help me did i make the right decision.
13 people left in tournament at my local casino (42 runners)
My table is 7 handed
Blinds are 600/1200 i have 11000
I am dealt A  K  in Middle Position 1
UTG-Folds
I raise 3000
MP2 goes all-in with 13000
Everyone folds round to me.
after 3 or 4 minutes deliberating i fold my reasoning is this:
MP2 is an irratic aggressive player and my original gut instinct was high pair which puts me behind preflop and he is asking me a tournament question if i lose im out, he has position on me and had it been the other way round i stick all my chips in no problem but hes seen my
medium raise and so he must put me on a large hand as he knows i am a tight player, i think it all comes down to position and the fact is AK is still a drawing hand and if he has a PP im behind Pre Flop.
In the end he shows me his hand A  J
We rabbit hunted and the flop woud have been A  5 J
The turn would have been K and the river was 8 giving him the nut flush.
i was berated by the table for folding AK Pre flop but i felt good about my lay down but the more i think about it the more it is playing on my mind that maybe im becoming to tight or maybe i should have gone all-in before him but i hate using all-in unless im micro-stack.
responses on this would be gratefully appreciated
Did you know that participating in a poker forum can help you improve your own game? Be it by sharing experiences or simply asking for help, participation in a forum helps you focus and keep 'on topic' which will help you improve your game. You can learn from other players feedback and from their experiences. Why the THP poker forums? We offer one of the best managed texas holdem poker forums available, and the community within is far more friendly than those typicaly found on other sites. We've made a 'lurkers edition' of the poker forum available here on Holdem Poker Online, but we encourage all visitors to register and join in on the conversations on TexasHoldem-Poker.com
Posted Sat May 21, 2005 4:18 pm GMT by DarkKnight
IMO you made the mistake when you raised. 11000 with 1200 blinds IS a short stack. A 3000 raise is not even 3xBB, all-in would've been my choice here.
Again, that's just MY opinion
Posted Sat May 21, 2005 6:37 pm GMT by TheDagmar
yes i agree but was i right to lay it down irrespective of what cards came.
Posted Sat May 21, 2005 6:41 pm GMT by age_of_sages
so if you get AA, and someone reraises you with 73o and the flop comes 456, you'd be correct to fold preflop? An incorrect call can be more profitable than a correct call at times, but that doesn't make it correct. Why do you think we have fishies all over the place giving us their money? Because you'll come out ahead once in awhile making the incorrect call.
As for your play, yes you should have pushed all-in right away. Since you didn't and got reraised, It's about 50/50 whether you call or fold there due to the gap concept.
Posted Sat May 21, 2005 7:13 pm GMT by TheDagmar
correct but important factors are only 12 people left in tourney AK massive hand still have 8000 left, had it been earlier in tourney then no choice but to stick it all in, i agree the only move is all in first but loathe to use that move unless totally necessary i dont think that was a do or die situation. and i folded pre flop so analgy of aces and 72 dosent really apply as obviously if i dont hit the flop with AK and he goes all in then yes i bail out. without big dent to stack.
My initial gut reaction was to fold as i put him on high pocket pair.
and gut reaction is a big factor i suppose my question is pre flop do you lay down AK as technically it is a top five hand but still a drawing hand. no matter what the stakes.
My philosophy is alot of people fall in love with AK but inevitably get burned by small pairs and the like.
Posted Sat May 21, 2005 8:57 pm GMT by tame_deuces
What happened after the flop is irrelevant, as the above poster stated. But in your defense, that also implies that your opponent holding AJ was also irrelevant, since you could not know that either.
But, you play to win here. AK is not a drawing hand late in a tournament. Don't think of AK as high card ace. What makes AK an extremely strong hand is so strong against an incredible large amount of hands, coinflips almost ANY PP (think about it, what do you want, AK or 77? Sounds silly, but it is actually worth thinking about) it dominates all AX hands etc. etc. Yes, you will find yourself in coin-flips with it, but personally I play to maximize that chipstack. When you are down on chips it is time to enter maniac mode, your last chance of any true leverage against other players are dwindling down. Revel in the knowledge that when you push with AK, people may very well fold, and if they don't, you will usually have 50% or more of a winning chance. 50%. Combined those two makes for a strong hand indeed.
Or to put it into perspective. Look at what your opponent did with AJ by pushing.
I'll rather take AK than any hand except KK, AA or QQ when the blinds get big.
Posted Sun May 22, 2005 12:15 am GMT by Phil14312
Labelling a hand as "drawing" versus a "made" hand is not useful. The useful things to think about is winning percentage. When you push with AK with a stack around 10xBB you are really looking for a big stack to call with AQ or AJ or Ax really. And, its really only a big dog against 2 hands, KK and AA. Any other hand is essentially a coinfip. I think the point of the matter is that late in a tourney you have less maneuvering to do with a shortstack and a hand like AK is the best chance you are gonna have to get called by an inferior hand.
Posted Sun May 22, 2005 12:09 pm GMT by snoogins47
| Phil14312 wrote: | | Labelling a hand as "drawing" versus a "made" hand is not useful. The useful things to think about is winning percentage. When you push with AK with a stack around 10xBB you are really looking for a big stack to call with AQ or AJ or Ax really. And, its really only a big dog against 2 hands, KK and AA. Any other hand is essentially a coinfip. I think the point of the matter is that late in a tourney you have less maneuvering to do with a shortstack and a hand like AK is the best chance you are gonna have to get called by an inferior hand. |
My DEAR LORD you have no idea how glad I am that somebody OTHER than me says this. I've been yammering away about why this "drawing hand" vs "made hand" distinction is completely arbitrary, and nobody seems to ever get it.
Anyway, unless there's some freakish blind structure/payout issues in this tournament that I'm unaware of, I don't fold here, and you shouldn't either. Assuming you meant you made it 3000 to go, you're getting nearly 2 to 1 on your money. If you raised 3000 on TOP of the blinds, you're getting better than that. You're probably winning near, or more often, than 50% of the time. Call, call, and call again.
To take the math out of it, you have AK, against a player who could move in with a lot worse than AK. Call.
Posted Sun May 22, 2005 1:09 pm GMT by Phil14312
Oh I get it snoogins, but sometimes its more fun to just wait for the long snoogin-post when I know it is coming 
Posted Sun May 22, 2005 10:25 pm GMT by suitedaces84
Another thing to consider is having AK greatly decreases the chances that someone else has AA or KK.
Posted Mon May 23, 2005 3:50 pm GMT by Hank
In effective tournament play you need to take risks with your chip stack. The maniacs take risks all the time, sometimes they win, sometimes they loose. The effective players take risks when it’s justified, and not always to a positive outcome. This was clearly a case that calls for risking your entire stack.
We can “arm chair quarterback” this all we want but what separates winners from dead money in tournaments is that ability to pull the trigger when the situation warrants. I too find it hard to put my tournament life at stake in calls like this, which is why I am keeping my day job.
So… out of curiosity, what place did you finish? Did you get blinded out and have to make an all in call with a crap hand?
|
|
