I made this guy SOOOO mad... justified play? |
|
Posted Mon May 23, 2005 7:41 pm GMT by Dr_Pablo
***** Hand History for Game 2095006900 *****
$2/$4 Hold'em - Monday, May 23, 20:25:25 EDT 2005
Table Bad Beat Jackpot #1026767 (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 3: bigjojo123 ( $41.5 )
Seat 10: euroboy1 ( $108.38 )
Seat 7: WellSaid ( $62.3 )
Seat 2: VMPoker05 ( $159.98 )
Seat 1: al_kerr ( $31.89 )
Seat 8: Dealum214 ( $129.38 )
Seat 9: SaltyDog23 ( $82 )
Seat 6: gimbler ( $40 )
Seat 4: caguama_mama ( $100 )
Seat 5: borisyeltsin ( $100 )
gimbler posts small blind $1.
WellSaid posts big blind $2.
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to WellSaid  
Dealum214 calls $2.
SaltyDog23 calls $2.
euroboy1 calls $2.
al_kerr folds.
VMPoker05 folds.
bigjojo123 raises $4.
gimbler folds.
WellSaid calls $2.
Dealum214 calls $2.
SaltyDog23 calls $2.
euroboy1 calls $2.
** Dealing Flop **   
WellSaid bets $2.
Dealum214 calls $2.
SaltyDog23 calls $2.
euroboy1 calls $2.
bigjojo123 calls $2.
** Dealing Turn ** 
WellSaid bets $4.
Dealum214 calls $4.
SaltyDog23 folds.
euroboy1 calls $4.
bigjojo123 raises $8.
WellSaid raises $8.
Dealum214 folds.
euroboy1 folds.
bigjojo123 raises $8.
WellSaid calls $4.
** Dealing River ** 
WellSaid checks.
bigjojo123 checks.
WellSaid shows a straight, five to nine.
bigjojo123 doesn't show   a pair of aces.
WellSaid wins $67.5 from the main pot with a straight, five to nine.
of course i got the usual noob... but this guy took it futher ranting and raving, then bringing in more money to try and prove he was right, haha it kinda made me laugh. he thinks my call is more justified if its heads up than if there are 6 callers, you be the judge, we need an unbiased opinion
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Posted Mon May 23, 2005 7:47 pm GMT by bigjojo123
Dude, seriously. It's easy to justify luck AFTER the hand is over. It was clear there were "numerous" people in on the hand. Because of that, when someone raises, the odds of winning a hand with 8 6o far outweigh getting lucky at one time randomly and hitting a straight. I love how noobs say they made a good play, just because their cards hit.
You keep playing that way and in the "long run" you will lose more money than you will win playing the same hand the same exact way. Bottom line.
That's what separates the good players from the bad. Yes, bad players get lucky with bad cards at times. It happens. However, good players will win out in the long run.
gfg
Posted Mon May 23, 2005 7:52 pm GMT by ScanX
how about :
raise the flop ?
Posted Mon May 23, 2005 7:52 pm GMT by bigjojo123
| Dr_Pablo wrote: | | then bringing in more money to try and prove he was right, haha it kinda made me laugh. he thinks my call is more justified if its heads up than if there are 6 callers, you be the judge, we need an unbiased opinion |
Wow, how can a hand NOT be more justified when less people are in on the hand. My logic says less people = better odds of winning the hand.
roflstiltskin @ Pablo
Posted Mon May 23, 2005 7:53 pm GMT by bigjojo123
| ScanX wrote: | how about :
raise the flop ? |
I could have, but it wouldn't have affected the outcome. On a straight draw, he still would have called, imo.
Posted Mon May 23, 2005 7:57 pm GMT by ScanX
of course he would have called.
so what are u whining about ?
quit fixed limit and try NL if u cant stand the people drawing when the pot odds are good enough for them to
everyone was right in this hand, ur AA got cracked, get over it
Posted Mon May 23, 2005 8:10 pm GMT by StarlightCoast
It boils down to he was protecting his blind. Had $2 out there already and with that many people in the pot its worth it. If there were just a couple in the pot I say muck it because even if you flop a draw chances are your pot odds shrivel up, but with 6 people protect the blind and see the flop. Nicely done.
Posted Mon May 23, 2005 8:10 pm GMT by suitedaces84
| bigjojo123 wrote: | | My logic says less people = better odds of winning the hand. |
Okay I agree. But odds of winning does not translate directly to value.
| bigjojo123 wrote: | | Wow, how can a hand NOT be more justified when less people are in on the hand |
There are two fundamental factors in determining the value of the hand. The % of the time you will win, and the amount you will win. You seem to be neglecting the latter. Would you rather have a 20% chance at winning a $20 pot or a 10% chance of winning a $50 pot?
Posted Mon May 23, 2005 8:14 pm GMT by NickFlynn
Dr Pablo certainly had odds to make the call before the flop - you are going to flop something playable (two pair, trips, straight draw) about 1 out of 10 times.
Those aces don't come with a warranty, Jojo. Take your medicine and move on - the whining is tedious.
- Nick
Posted Mon May 23, 2005 8:31 pm GMT by Iron Butt
Yeah, wow, terrible play on the flop there jo. With that flop and 4(!) callers there, you MUST raise there and hope for some folds. By the time you do try to protect your hand, you're too late. And you have to get in the habit of making the proper play regardless of an individual outcome.
And jo, you've kinda got it backwards, the standard line is that you do want to play speculative hands against many opponents, because these are the times where you get paid for the risk if you hit. Like here. :D
I know, why educate... I don't expect him to listen though. 
Posted Mon May 23, 2005 9:10 pm GMT by bigjojo123
| ScanX wrote: | of course he would have called.
so what are u whining about ?
quit fixed limit and try NL if u cant stand the people drawing when the pot odds are good enough for them to
everyone was right in this hand, ur AA got cracked, get over it |
You said raise the flop? That means raise after the flop. Raising after the flop would not have affected the outcome or anything we are debating about.
think, then speak
^^
words of advice
Posted Mon May 23, 2005 9:17 pm GMT by bigjojo123
| NickFlynn wrote: | Dr Pablo certainly had odds to make the call before the flop - you are going to flop something playable (two pair, trips, straight draw) about 1 out of 10 times.
Those aces don't come with a warranty, Jojo. Take your medicine and move on - the whining is tedious.
- Nick |
Doesn't matter if it's playable if there is someone that's gonna take advantage of a cards you think is gonna hit.
Like I said, if only a couple people were in, I would say it would be a worthwhile call, imo.
kaythanks
Posted Mon May 23, 2005 9:20 pm GMT by suitedaces84
| bigjojo123 wrote: | | Raising after the flop would not have affected the outcome or anything we are debating about. |
The point he was making is that you played that hand poorly. He never claimed he knew professional secrets that would weasel you out of a loss there.
Posted Mon May 23, 2005 10:04 pm GMT by bigjojo123
| suitedaces84 wrote: | | bigjojo123 wrote: | | Raising after the flop would not have affected the outcome or anything we are debating about. |
The point he was making is that you played that hand poorly. He never claimed he knew professional secrets that would weasel you out of a loss there. |
His sole and only point was that it would have made a difference. Little did he know it didn't have any impact since it came AFTER the fact as I have already covered.
You shouldn't speak for other people, especially when you have no idea what they were talking about in the first place.
Posted Mon May 23, 2005 10:09 pm GMT by ScanX
| bigjojo123 wrote: | | ScanX wrote: | of course he would have called.
so what are u whining about ?
quit fixed limit and try NL if u cant stand the people drawing when the pot odds are good enough for them to
everyone was right in this hand, ur AA got cracked, get over it |
You said raise the flop? That means raise after the flop. Raising after the flop would not have affected the outcome or anything we are debating about.
think, then speak
^^
words of advice |
raise the flop is raise on the flop indeed...did it sound like chinese ?
it wouldnt have affected the outcome but it didnt mean u played it properly. Folding wouldnt have affected the result either as u lost anyway huh ?
if you think poker is only about results you might want to try thinking harder...then speak.
Posted Tue May 24, 2005 1:13 am GMT by snoogins47
I don't really mind waiting until the turn to raise there with AA. Narrowing the field won't really happen on the flop. And it shouldn't. You probably make more money from weak overpairs and overcard type hands by waiting. You also might get some people to incorrectly fold 5 outer type hands on the turn.
I'm not saying it's optimum, because I haven't really thought about it much, but to say that Jojo made some atrocious mistake here isn't really right.
That said, Jojo... what the hell gives? You haven't forged an argument, other than "Players like you lose in the long run." I think, for somebody who plays well after the flop, (more specifically, better than his average opponents) 68o from the BB there is profitable preflop.
Scan never said raising the flop would have affected anything. In fact, he said "of course Pablo would have called." Because he would have. And should have. If you're honestly saying that raising the flop is bad because he wouldn't have folded, even though you have an equity edge, you're suffering from the same fallacious reasoning that you're accusing the fish of succumbing to (where because they hit a miracle card, they think they played well.)
In closing, bet that damned river Pablo.
Posted Tue May 24, 2005 1:53 am GMT by bigjojo123
| ScanX wrote: | | bigjojo123 wrote: | | ScanX wrote: | of course he would have called.
so what are u whining about ?
quit fixed limit and try NL if u cant stand the people drawing when the pot odds are good enough for them to
everyone was right in this hand, ur AA got cracked, get over it |
You said raise the flop? That means raise after the flop. Raising after the flop would not have affected the outcome or anything we are debating about.
think, then speak
^^
words of advice |
raise the flop is raise on the flop indeed...did it sound like chinese ?
it wouldnt have affected the outcome but it didnt mean u played it properly. Folding wouldnt have affected the result either as u lost anyway huh ?
if you think poker is only about results you might want to try thinking harder...then speak. |
Yeah, and the fortyniners won the Superbowl of '85 against the Miami Dolphins.
Let's talk about other stuff not related to the original argument. I'm sure everyone has all day.
Posted Tue May 24, 2005 2:00 am GMT by bigjojo123
| snoogins47 wrote: | I don't really mind waiting until the turn to raise there with AA.
|
Sure, depends on the crowd and who bets on the flop.
| snoogins47 wrote: |
That said, Jojo... what the hell gives? You haven't forged an argument, other than "Players like you lose in the long run."
|
That's exactly the argument. What some of you fail to understand is that while every once in a while someone is gonna win with that hand playing the same exact way with so many people in on the hand, in the "long run" it's gonna lose more money than it's gonna win when it hits. It's funny to hear noobs talk about how great their play was simply because it paid off. Just because it paid off doesn't mean it's a great play. You have to look at the odds. Bottom line. That's my argument. Try sprinkling it with salt. That's what gives.
thanks for playing
| snoogins47 wrote: |
Scan never said raising the flop would have affected anything. |
His original comment was meant to suggest that me raising was gonna change the outcome of him winning the hand. That was what was implied, given by how he put it together and his later reply to my post. Read it carefully and you'll see. He wasn't just talking about my "god awful" play.
Posted Tue May 24, 2005 11:29 am GMT by arras
This is great, I am a noob and am seeing every hole in jojo's arguments.
Jojo, go back and read one of suitedaces post with the bold letters and answer the question he posted at the end.
Posted Tue May 24, 2005 11:40 am GMT by Soup_dog
Im not sure what is going on with this thread. It looks to me like WellSaid (DrPablo?) made a reasonable play.
He was in the big blind and was already in the pot for one BB and just made a call on one more BB. (If there had been more than one raise in front of him I would have folded.) The fact that there were so many people in the pot just raised his EV and gave him even more reason to be in the pot.
Post flop he has four to the straight. Again, I don't have a problem with calling 1 or 2 BB to see if you can catch the last card. Again, there are a bunch of people in the pot, so the EV is good. After hitting his str8, of course he would stay.
Am I missing something? Of course, I don't play much limit poker so maybe my analysis is off.
Posted Tue May 24, 2005 11:45 am GMT by ScanX
| Quote: | What some of you fail to understand is that while every once in a while someone is gonna win with that hand playing the same exact way with so many people in on the hand, in the "long run" it's gonna lose more money than it's gonna win when it hits. It's funny to hear noobs talk about how great their play was simply because it paid off. Just because it paid off doesn't mean it's a great play. You have to look at the odds. Bottom line. That's my argument. Try sprinkling it with salt. That's what gives.
thanks for playing
|
u dont have a clue about pot odds do you ?
he had the hand to play it against a large field, not against 1 or 2 players, because he had great pot odds to call.
So you're again completely wrong.
and we didnt say he played well cause he won you bozo, he played well cause he had the right pot odds to make the call everytime, had he won or lost.
And I never said that raising the flop would have changed the outcome, it's just that if you are sure u have the best hand at that point you want to get more money in the pot right ?
Posted Tue May 24, 2005 12:30 pm GMT by Iron Butt
I'm totally changing my position, bigjojo is right and everyone else is wrong.  
Never mind the life preservers BJ, stick with that anvil.
Posted Tue May 24, 2005 12:49 pm GMT by p3nguin
Just to clarify for us noobs out here (I can't be the only one) who are interested in the discussion not the name calling:
It is my understanding that calling was the correct move to make because there were so many people in the pot already. That if he were facing one or two raisers then he would not be getting good pot odds,but he was getting 10:1 (are those implied odds because 2 of the calls came behind him?) on his bet it was worth it in the long run.
Is this correct? I am not trying to "be right" I just want to learn.
Posted Tue May 24, 2005 12:55 pm GMT by Soup_dog
| p3nguin wrote: | Just to clarify for us noobs out here (I can't be the only one) who are interested in the discussion not the name calling:
It is my understanding that calling was the correct move to make because there were so many people in the pot already. That if he were facing one or two raisers then he would not be getting good pot odds,but he was getting 10:1 (are those implied odds because 2 of the calls came behind him?) on his bet it was worth it in the long run.
Is this correct? I am not trying to "be right" I just want to learn. |
Thats the way I understand it.
Posted Tue May 24, 2005 12:58 pm GMT by ScanX
| p3nguin wrote: | Just to clarify for us noobs out here (I can't be the only one) who are interested in the discussion not the name calling:
It is my understanding that calling was the correct move to make because there were so many people in the pot already. That if he were facing one or two raisers then he would not be getting good pot odds,but he was getting 10:1 (are those implied odds because 2 of the calls came behind him?) on his bet it was worth it in the long run.
Is this correct? I am not trying to "be right" I just want to learn. |
u are right.
but that goes beyond bigjojo's "logic"
Posted Tue May 24, 2005 1:26 pm GMT by suitedaces84
Let's forget about odds and numbers and probability for a minute. Isn't any play that has the potential to make someone this mad and generate this much entertainment for so many people easily worth $2?
Posted Tue May 24, 2005 1:41 pm GMT by p3nguin
| suitedaces84 wrote: | | Let's forget about odds and numbers and probability for a minute. Isn't any play that has the potential to make someone this mad and generate this much entertainment for so many people easily worth $2? |
I have only been playing for a month now, but at low stakes tables I think that this factor is one that deserves some attention.
I have noticed that early on if I get lucky and take a good amount of chips from another player on a bad beat they shoot back something like "Nice luck noob". I reply with "Not luck at all, I had +EV and great implied odds" (of course I have no idea what I am talking about, but fancy terms look good).
This usually sends the other guy into a fit where he goes off telling me what a noob I am and how I will lose my money blah blah blah.
But it usually puts the other guy on tilt and he is soon gone.
In this particular case the guy came here to the forums to continue to berate the person who took his money, thats just classic.
Posted Tue May 24, 2005 2:17 pm GMT by FearItself
I'll jump on the wagon here and say that I thought DrPablo played this well except that I would have bet the river also.
My main reason for posting though is to say what's with Jojo? Why be so antagonistic towards everyone? People are here to discuss and agree or disagree as part of the learning process. It's not personal until you make it personal. Enjoy the rest of the day.
Posted Tue May 24, 2005 2:18 pm GMT by snoogins47
| Quote: | | That's exactly the argument. What some of you fail to understand is that while every once in a while someone is gonna win with that hand playing the same exact way with so many people in on the hand, in the "long run" it's gonna lose more money than it's gonna win when it hits. It's funny to hear noobs talk about how great their play was simply because it paid off. Just because it paid off doesn't mean it's a great play. You have to look at the odds. Bottom line. That's my argument. Try sprinkling it with salt. That's what gives. |
Saying "that play is bad because it loses in the long run" on a poker forum is tantamount to saying "that play is bad because it's bad."
Nobody is saying "HE PLAYED GOOT BECAUSE HE HIT A STRAIGHT." We're disagreeing that it's a losing play, for a handful of reasons. Your counter to that argument is "it's a losing play, noobs." I'll need more than salt. Maybe if I soak it in Ketchup the shit won't taste so bad.
Posted Tue May 24, 2005 7:02 pm GMT by Fat Tony
| FearItself wrote: | | My main reason for posting though is to say what's with Jojo? Why be so antagonistic towards everyone? |
i have no idea what's up with jojo, but if he wishes to continue posting on this forum i suggest that he do something about the way he treats others.
i don't know why he bitching about this hand anyway, there's nothing wrong with how Pablo played it (although i would have bet the river).
Posted Tue May 24, 2005 7:11 pm GMT by Dr_Pablo
I quickly realized that a bet on the river would have been a much better play.
in the heat of the moment i saw the flush card hit (this is after a couple consecutive beats,) made a bad play and checked it, planning on check calling, certain he would bet. At the time i rationalized it as a defensive check, but betting is definatley the better play.
also jojo claims 325BB's at 2/4 that day alone, so he if that claim is true he should have a reason for us why my play is so terrible, instead of simplying disagreeing with everyone on a forum.
Posted Tue May 24, 2005 7:35 pm GMT by NickFlynn
I think this thread will continue until we've all added Jojo to our buddy lists.
- Nick
(Oh, yeah, bet that river, Pablo!)
Posted Tue May 24, 2005 7:35 pm GMT by suitedaces84
| Dr_Pablo wrote: | | also jojo claims 325BB's at 2/4 that day alone |
That claim does seem a trifle outragous if BB refers to big blinds, and extermely outragous if BB refers to big bets.
Posted Tue May 24, 2005 7:49 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| suitedaces84 wrote: | | Dr_Pablo wrote: | | also jojo claims 325BB's at 2/4 that day alone |
That claim does seem a trifle outragous if BB refers to big blinds, and extermely outragous if BB refers to big bets. |
I don't know about that. 20BB/hr over 16 hours is a piece of cake when you got skillz.
Posted Tue May 24, 2005 7:50 pm GMT by tame_deuces
| suitedaces84 wrote: | | Dr_Pablo wrote: | | also jojo claims 325BB's at 2/4 that day alone |
That claim does seem a trifle outragous if BB refers to big blinds, and extermely outragous if BB refers to big bets. |
Bill Fillmaff could easily do it 
Posted Mon May 30, 2005 9:49 pm GMT by suitedaces84
I know this is overkill, but I ran into bigjojo in a 2/4 room and just couldn't resist.
Note: the names have not been changed to protect to innocent.
#Game No : 2131590160
***** Hand History for Game 2131590160 *****
$2/$4 Hold'em - Monday, May 30, 22:31:42 EDT 2005
Table Bad Beat Jackpot #1028550 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: bigjojo123 ( $44.5 )
Seat 2: dipthrong ( $124 )
Seat 3: ctownjd ( $216.5 )
Seat 4: tramtram ( $154 )
Seat 6: NussBaus ( $93 )
Seat 7: AnhPokeEm2 ( $47 )
Seat 8: twerd ( $18.5 )
Seat 9: cassanoalcin ( $37.5 )
Seat 10: DalakFenring ( $40.5 )
Seat 5: suitedaces84 ( $36 )
NussBaus posts small blind $1.
AnhPokeEm2 posts big blind $2.
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to suitedaces84  
twerd folds.
cassanoalcin calls $2.
DalakFenring folds.
bigjojo123 raises $4.
dipthrong folds.
ctownjd folds.
tramtram folds.
suitedaces84 folds.
NussBaus folds.
AnhPokeEm2 calls $2.
cassanoalcin calls $2.
** Dealing Flop **   
AnhPokeEm2 checks.
cassanoalcin checks.
bigjojo123 bets $2.
AnhPokeEm2 raises $4.
cassanoalcin calls $4.
bigjojo123 raises $4.
AnhPokeEm2 calls $2.
cassanoalcin calls $2.
** Dealing Turn **
AnhPokeEm2 checks.
cassanoalcin bets $4.
bigjojo123 calls $4.
AnhPokeEm2 calls $4.
** Dealing River ** 
AnhPokeEm2 checks.
cassanoalcin bets $4.
bigjojo123 calls $4.
AnhPokeEm2 calls $4.
cassanoalcin shows  a flush, jack high.
bigjojo123 doesn't show a pair of aces.
AnhPokeEm2 doesn't show   a pair of queens.
cassanoalcin wins $52 from the main pot with a flush, jack high.
bigjojo123: nothing like getting noobied yet again
bigjojo123: i love it
bigjojo123: this place loves rewarding idiots
Posted Tue May 31, 2005 2:54 pm GMT by krakajak
| bigjojo123 wrote: | | Dr_Pablo wrote: | | then bringing in more money to try and prove he was right, haha it kinda made me laugh. he thinks my call is more justified if its heads up than if there are 6 callers, you be the judge, we need an unbiased opinion |
Wow, how can a hand NOT be more justified when less people are in on the hand. My logic says less people = better odds of winning the hand.
roflstiltskin @ Pablo |
The goal is not to have the best chance of winning the hand; The goal is to maximize your expected value from the hand. E.G., suppose with 3 people in the hand, you have a 20% chance of winning $10, but with 6 people in, you have a 15% chance of winning $20, which would you prefer?
Low connectors play well with many people, because you are looking to make a big hand with them, which is likely to hold up acgainst a bunch of players. With a vulnerable hand like a pair, you want a small field since it is less likely to hold up against many players, but even against 6 opponents, you can be reasonably certain your straight will hold up, so you're happy to play a big field with it.
Also, players who criticize their opponents after a bad beat are contradicting themselves. You want your opponents to make mistakes, so if he made one, you should be glad, as you will profit in the long run from such mistakes, and if he didn't make a mistake, then you have no cause to bitch. So please, stop bitching like a little housewife, and learn to take your beats like a man. If you can't do that, then find a hobby that isn't so risky, like cooking or knitting.
Posted Tue May 31, 2005 3:46 pm GMT by Loonbat
| krakajak wrote: | | If you can't do that, then find a hobby that isn't so risky, like cooking or knitting. |
Says you!!! Sharp needles and fire (or a hot burner) can hardly be safe. Much easier to deal with paper cuts ...
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