Posted Thu May 26, 2005 9:17 am GMT by howzit
1-2NL:
Hero: $~700
Villain: $1200
Villain: raises to $17
Hero calls in the CO w/22
1 other callers:
Pot: $50
Flop: K  Q  2
Villain leads for $35, i raise to $100.
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Posted Thu May 26, 2005 9:36 am GMT by Dave B
truly amazing
Posted Thu May 26, 2005 9:37 am GMT by arras
| Dave B wrote: | | truly amazing |
i dont get it.
Posted Thu May 26, 2005 9:48 am GMT by howzit
| Dave B wrote: | | truly amazing |
too much? too little? smooth call?
Posted Thu May 26, 2005 9:55 am GMT by Dave B
Oh, now I get it.
I am not a NL guy, but dont like the flush draw/str8 draw out there. The pot isnt huge right now, so I may smooth call the $35, hope the other player hangs in or raises.
I risk a scare card hitting on the turn and letting my $60 go with the potential winner. If 3rd players raises behind me on the flop, then go over the top big time.
By waiting until the turn to raise, any draw is now only 1/6 to hit and the river will be much more expensive for any draw. Plus, if the original raiser has KQ AK then he will likely bet more like $100 on the turn-more pain and now harder to laydown to a big raise.
Let me guess, someone busted you w/ KK or QQ?
Posted Thu May 26, 2005 10:43 am GMT by howzit
the only hand that's calling me is AK, KK, QQ.
and i'd hate the action to go: bet, call. bet, raise, reraise.
preflop raiser made a huge production and folded. He then started bitching about folding a big king and if i was making a move. Later, i hit him up real good w/a set vs. aces.
yeah, i run good.
Posted Thu May 26, 2005 2:33 pm GMT by titans4ever
Take your $85 and be happy. There are way too many outs to slow play the set here. I think you got as much as you could with the hand with someone raising before you made it $100.
Your hand is only as good as the cards on the table. You have to make it expensive to see the cards that could kill yours.
Posted Thu May 26, 2005 2:55 pm GMT by Dave B
The odds of a scare card hitting are 16-32% depending on if you count the straight, flush, or A (assuming AA). So, 68-84% of the time, you will win $85 MORE based on the chance of the 3rd player calling and/or the blind firing on the turn. Sometimes, you will win A LOT more. Think about the payoff if a K Q or 2 hit on the turn?
I do not condone slow playing, but I think in this case, I definately try to milk more out of this pot. It looks like a perfect set up for me to make a big payoff on.
Posted Thu May 26, 2005 3:32 pm GMT by p3nguin
| Dave B wrote: |
I do not condone slow playing, but I think in this case, |
Odd, I thought slow playing was a "good" tactic. PLease explain why you don't condone it.
(This is not a sarcastic post, I am genuinely curious).
Posted Thu May 26, 2005 3:38 pm GMT by age_of_sages
When you slowplay two bad things can happen. #1: You don't have the nuts and get outdrawn and end up losing the pot. #2: You have the nuts but didn't get as much money in the pot as you would have by playing the hand faster.
I think the slowplay is a more useful tactic in NL where you can get someones money in the pot on any street so you give someone a chance to catch up a bit. Whereas in limit (especially low limits) you want to get as much money in the pot as fast as possible as you're going to often have callers anyhow.
Generally you don't want to slowplay anything worse than a nut straight, but there's always that situation where "it depends". It just takes getting that experience to see those situations.
Posted Thu May 26, 2005 3:40 pm GMT by Dave B
Only because people slow play WAY too often. Sometimes you will see people slowplaying top pair, 2 pair, or hands that are not dominant. I love to slow play, but do it as the exception, not the rule.
In this hand, a slow play could VERY easily be seen as being on a draw. So you are more likely to see a bet come out on the turn.
Slow playing is great, IF you can lay down a big hand when a scare card hits AND if you have a strong feeling that you will be paid off.
If this was a SNG w/ 7 limpers and I make a set on this flop, I want to get down to one or two other MAX on the flop. With a ton of callers, slow playing gets more and more dangerous and you hand needs to be THAT much better. For example, heads up-slow play top pair, 7 way action, nut flush minimum for me to slow play.
Posted Thu May 26, 2005 4:19 pm GMT by p3nguin
Good advice, thanks to both of you.
I have been playing SNG's and I don't slow play that often but I do find that mixing it up in general is a great way to throw off your opponents.
Do you think in a SNG it is worth it to possibly not get all the money you could on a particular hand if it makes you harder to read in the long run?
The other thing is depending on the flop (9 2 3 rainbow for example) just about any bet will cause everyone to fold, If I am holding a set or 2 pair do I bet and take the pot then or would this be one of the few situations that you feel warrants a slow play.
Just for the sake of arguement I am in because I am on the big blind so I checked in with my 92o and there were 5 players who saw the flop.
edit: This is NL
Posted Thu May 26, 2005 5:45 pm GMT by suitedaces84
Another thing to consider is often your oppoents are on draws, and your only chance to get money out of them will be on the flop and turn. If you want the to bluff a missed draw you better make sure the pot big enough to bluff at. No player in their right mind would throw a $50 bluff at a $5 pot. They may bluff $5 at a $5 pot in which case you won't make much. But if you want them to bluff big the pot had better be big.
1) Also the slowplay is more of a player specific play. If you're against the table maniac slowplaying is often a good idea. If there are others in the hand they are more likely to hang around with the table maniac than they would with you betting.
2) Don't slowplay 'til the river w/o position. Often a scary board hits I stab on the flop, I stab on the turn, and by the time the river comes around I'm really suspicious and will check.
3) Like Dave said, lay it down when you have to. If you like your hand so much that you can't let it go you better not slowplay it (unless it's a high boat or better).
The problem with cronic sandbaggers is they have to do it everytime. If you never show any aggression on the flop, you'll never be able to get action. There's nothing deceptive about a player who plays every hand the same way.
Posted Thu May 26, 2005 6:39 pm GMT by Phil14312
I think what Howzit was originally getting at (and correct me if I'm wrong) was that his big raise on the flop was only going to get called by hands that will beat his (KK, QQ) and possibly some hands which he can beat (Ac Kc being the most likely, although he might raise with KQ and play back and if he is more LAG he might have something like 10c Jc and play back as well, and even against these hands 22 is still a favorite).
I think that the problem with the raise is that most likely, only hands that can beat you will call. Even AK doesn't look so good as the only thing AK can beat on this board is a bluff or KJ.
Like Dave said, smooth calling the flop looks like you are drawing and he is likely to lead out on the turn where you can put the hammer on, and he might even call if he thinks you are making a play or the pot is big enough.
Another thing to think about is stack sizes. Both of you have a lot of money on the table (don't know how everyone else compares) but the villian has you well covered. If he gets frisky with AK and decides to come over the top, are you willing to put all your chips in when he could have KK or QQ?
So...after all of that I vote for smooth call/raise the turn. If he decides to come over the top on the turn, I think you can safely muck 22 as only a real maniac would put a re-raise on the turn with KQ or AK. I think that your decision also needs to take into account your read on the player. Will he make a move on you that might force you to lay down the best hand? Then I would be more careful on the flop. Is he a player that overvalues TPTK? Then I like raising the flop because he might call you down with AK or KQ (most likely AK).
Just my thoughts.
Posted Fri May 27, 2005 8:38 am GMT by howzit
the real money in this hand is against AK and KQ. But, because this guy really wasn't raising a lot PF, KK and QQ are right in the middle of the range.
(1) I have an image of a bluffer so AK and KQ may make this call.
(2) I'd like to get as much money in the flop now in case a straight or flush card comes on the turn, killing my action.
(3) If I am in a set over set, I might be able to get away.
(4) SB could call here, which makes this hand much harder to play.
I think slowplaying has its merits on this hand but I'd probably raise him on the river if no clubs/straight cards fill up. I'd sell it as a busted draw trying to steal.
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