Pre Flop Raises with a 'Potential' Hand |
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Posted Mon Jun 13, 2005 11:19 am GMT by lwestatbus
This post is to ask for confirmation or rebuttal for my feeling on how to play a 'potential' hand preflop if there is a raise (or two) in front of you. I define 'potential hand' to be something that can develop into a straight or a flush but isn't a hand in its own right yet. E.g., 10-J off suit, K4 suited, etc. This question isn't really about what kinds of cards you play this way.
Forgetting about the raise (for the moment), what I've read about these hands is that you only want to play them if there are a lot of players because the odds of the straight or flush developing are low and you want enough money in the pot (from enough players) to make the call worth while should the hand develop. Please let me know if you disagree with this as the logic I'm really asking about (see below) depends on this concept of play.
Getting (at last) to the question: It seems to me that it is immaterial as to whether there is a raise in front of you as to whether you play one of these potential hands except for one caveat. It seems that it is like betting $5 at BlackJack or $10. You risk more but win more. A raise should signal a strong hand such as a high pocket pair, AK, or whatever the raising player decides is worthy of the raise (sometimes very loosely interpreted). These cards are probably already a 'hand'. but would have to develop into a full house, straight flush, or four of a kind to beat your straight or flush if you get it. Therefore, IF you make your hand eventually you are likely to take the pre flop raiser's money along with the money of everybody that called him/her.
The caveat is that if the pre flop raise drives out more money than it adds by causing others to fold it may not be wise to pursue a weak 'potential' hand. (E.g. 78 offsuit is weaker than A5 suited). It seems that you would have to gauge the character of the table to decide this, especially if the raiser is close to you on your right and you are both in early position.
Anyway, subject to the caveat, should a preflop raise affect whether you play what I've described as a 'potential hand'. (Also, is there a commonly accepted term for this hand?)
Thanks.
Larry
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Posted Mon Jun 13, 2005 12:30 pm GMT by mangothebear
JT are connectors. K4s is just suited. 78s is a suited connector. I guess people would call them "drawing hands".
Particularly in limit, you should NOT play these types of hands to a raise (or possibly at all) unless there are at least 3 or 4 players in the hand. Most of the time, you are not going to flop a good draw (open ended straight draw or flush draw) and paring one card is not gonna help you much, especially when someone has represented they already have a good hand. The risk vs. reward just isn't worth it. There's no guarantee you're even going to get paid in full the few times you hit, but most of the time, you'll be folding or just calling while dominated. The same is true with small pocket pairs. Raising means that 1) you are going up against a hand that is most likely much better than yours and 2) it gives you even worse odds to see if you can makes your longshot
In no limit, it is different. This is because the implied odds if you DO hit can be tremendous if they are holding an overpair. If I make hit a set, two pair, straight or flush versus AA, I could very likely double my stack. Limit just won't lay these kinds of implied odds.
Posted Mon Jun 13, 2005 12:37 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| mangothebear wrote: | | Particularly in limit, you should NOT play these types of hands to a raise (or possibly at all) unless there are at least 3 or 4 players in the hand. |
Or unless you can outplay a small field after the flop. With position against a weak or passive opponent, you can often raise the flop with any unthreatening board and see the turn for free. Many times you can get to the river for nothing more than the 1 BB on the flop.
Posted Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:00 pm GMT by Soup_dog
I can only comment on "no limit" but I learned some very surprising things from reading Dan Harrington's book. He actually plays a wider variety of hands than I have ever seen advocated in a book.
In early and middle position he plays all of the hands you would normally expect. In late position he actually advises playing suited connectors, Ax suited, and even unsuited connectors. He also says to be sure only to limp with these hands because you will usually fold them immediately after the flop.
According to Dan, the reason you play these hands is because no one would ever "expect" you too. As a result, when you hit the flop you can usually make a huge pot.
BTW, I would highly recommend the book. One of the best I have read.
Posted Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:32 pm GMT by lwestatbus
Thanks to all who responded. I was interested in Mango's comment about limit (what I play exclusively for now) and no limit. But I do find that at the right table, in the right circumstances, I've had some big payoffs to seeing the flop with these hands. Since considering the issue leading to my original post I've been paying attention to my success with these hands and feel that I am ahead overall by a considerable margin playing these 'drawing hands', raise or no raise. Whether I pay one or two small bets I get enough information on the flop to get out right away or be in solid position. I'm finding what Soup reported to be right on. They are stealth hands until the third suited card hits the table when everybody starts getting cautious. Until then, the original raiser and everybody that followed them into the pot are betting away with wild abandon. And, again, I can get out after the flop if it doesn't hit me.
A surprising factor is the number of times I pay to see the flop with these hands and end up with two pair, a set, or eventually a full house.
So far, at least, those who are betting on their starting cards have their potential attached to those cards. If the board starts generating cards that support my straight or flush (therefore I'm staying in) these cards are rarely conducive to a full house for my opponents, the only realistic thing I'm worried about.
I guess the biggest thing I'm seeing is that my drawing hands have multi-way potential in that straights can build in any direction, flushes are flexible, AND they can develop pairs, two pair, sets, and even boats. On the other hand, a pocket pair or AK/AQ, etc., has its potential limited. And, again, I can get out quickly if the flop misses me.
I've had my best success with my middle connectors (78, 89, 9T) as it seems that nobody sees those coming. 6-9-T on the board seems to have everybody looking at the high end, maybe with the feeling that nobody would stay in with 78.
I definitely have to test this over the long run.
Anyway, thanks to all the responders. I appreciate Soup's recommendation of the Harrington book. I enjoy watching him play.
Larry
Posted Fri Jun 17, 2005 1:30 pm GMT by Loonbat
Another problem with these potential hands is a positional problem. Unless you're closing the betting, the chance for the raise behind you always exists. What you once thought you could see for $3 (in a 3/6 FL game) becomes far more expensive when you get caught having to call another bet (or two, which I never recommend with the hands you've discussed). I generally avoid the problem hands unless I'm nearly certain there will not be a raise behing me. I used to have a fondness for Kx suited and JT is still one of my favorite hands. However, it's also one of the more expensive hands. Unless you hit the str8, JT has poor potential. The Kx will present a kicker issue if the K hits.
-Loon
Posted Fri Jul 01, 2005 11:51 pm GMT by gol4pro
In an NL game, I typically try to change gears 10% of the time preflop. I usually do this in one of 3 ways.
1) raise a suited connector/1 gapper
2) limp or limp/raise AA/KK/QQ
3) Do something funny with AK/AQ that I normally wouldn't do
4) Smallish raise with a low PP
Some of my biggest payouts have come from 1 and 4.
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