New Player Testing Play Styles-- Thoughts? |
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Posted Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:20 pm GMT by Tadzio
After reading this site I decided to think seriously about my own play-style and I came to the conclusion that short-stacked I'm loose/aggressive, medium stacked I'm tight/passive, and big-stacked I'm loose/passive until the river when I get tight.
These are my stats for that type of play:
Fold Percentages:
Pre-flop: 26%
Flop: 25%
Turn: 11%
River: 7%
Round:
Saw the Flop: 71%
Went to River after seeing the Flop: 40%
Folded to a River Bet: 47%
Showdowns won: 47%
Outcome:
Avg. Big Bets per hand: 1.32
Hands Played: 1329
Win/Loss per hour: -37.90
Total Won/Lost: -897.00
...Not great, I know.
So, today I decided to be tight/aggressive no matter what, just to test out the advantages. I would limp in to see the flop if I didn't have a good starting hand, and when I had a good starting hand I bet 8x the BB. Once I saw the flop I'd limp or fold depending on the action and my draws. If I caught a 4-flush, top-pair or better, I'd bet half the pot if it was over 200 and the full pot if it was under 200. On the river, if I believed I had the best hand I'd bet the pot (assuming I could afford it), if I wasn't sure I'd test the water by semi-bluffing, and if I'd missed a draw or someone re-raised me and I wasn't convinced of having the best hand, I'd fold. Over the course of 187 hands I bluffed only 2 or 3 times, and those were on draws I'd missed.
For this experiment I spent a little over 4 hours at one same table: NL with a BB of $10. Most people came and left, but the person immediately to my left, primarily a call-station (but semi-tight when the mood struck him... I wasn't able to figure out how to make him fold, however) was there the entire time. Most of the players were loose/passive and a couple complained about pre-flop raises. The minority were loose/aggressive, but I didn't worry about them much. And for about an hour there was another tight/aggressive player at the table to whom I lost 2 very costly hands.
My biggest loss of the day was for -$4752, to the other tight/aggressive player (Kmaleon). I had top-pair and an overcard kicker, he rivered 2-pair. Bye-bye money. (Comments in red is an estimation of what I was thinking at the time)
Hand 1000912214, Started at 6/19/2005 1:53 PM
Table 'Dallas': $10-$10 No Limit Texas Hold'em (Play Money)
Seat 0: Tadzio ($11,116.00 in chips) chip-leader! yay!
Seat 1: Megahoover ($4,731.00 in chips)
Seat 2: BigRayC17 ($-232.00 in chips)
Seat 3: lentiu ($1,450.00 in chips)
Seat 4: Stealth808 ($920.00 in chips)
Seat 5: -AJB- ($754.00 in chips)
Seat 6: Kmaleon ($4,752.00 in chips)
Seat 7: ullyeus ($1,686.00 in chips)
Seat 8: Mavd4 ($6,757.00 in chips)
Seat 9: torrrr ($1,564.00 in chips)
*** Blind Bet Round *** :
ullyeus : Post Blind ($5.00)
Mavd4 : Post Blind ($10.00)
*** Pre-Flop *** :
torrrr : Call ($10.00)
Tadzio : Raise ($80.00) Ks Qc
Megahoover : Fold
BigRayC17 : Call ($80.00)
lentiu : Call ($80.00)
Stealth808 : Fold
-AJB- : Call ($80.00)
Kmaleon : Raise ($250.00)
ullyeus : Fold
Mavd4 : Fold
torrrr : Fold
Tadzio : Call ($170.00)
BigRayC17 : Raise ($203.00)
BigRayC17 : All In
lentiu : Call ($203.00)
-AJB- : Raise ($699.00)
-AJB- : All In
Kmaleon : Call ($529.00)
Tadzio : Call ($529.00)
lentiu : Call ($496.00)
*** Flop *** : 9s Qh 7h
Tadzio : Bet ($1,500.00) Had top pair and I wanted the heart draws to leave
lentiu : Call ($671.00)
lentiu : All In But he sticks around anyway
Kmaleon : Call ($1,500.00)
*** Turn *** :    6c
Tadzio : Check Let's see if he has anything
Kmaleon : Check Must have a heart draw...
*** River *** :  Js
Tadzio : Bet ($2,473.00) Js, time to put the hurt on the heart-drawers
Kmaleon : Call ($2,473.00)
Kmaleon : All In
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: $12,038.00 | Rake: $3.00
Board: 
Tadzio lost $4,752.00 Ergh?...
Megahoover lost $0.00
BigRayC17 lost $283.00
lentiu lost $1,450.00
Stealth808 lost $0.00
-AJB- lost $779.00
Kmaleon bet $4,752.00, collected $12,038.00, net $7,286.00 Shows   (two pairs, Queens and Jacks.) Arrgh!!!
ullyeus lost $5.00
Mavd4 lost $10.00
torrrr lost $10.00
I'm not sure what I could've done better with this hand besides getting luckier or never playing it at all, but any insight or advice is very welcome!
...On the other side of things, when I won, I won a great deal-- 7 of my 25 winning hands showed a net profit of $1000 or better. I folded a total of 142/187 hands while picking my spots and survived the damage of the 20 hands I lost in showdowns. My best hand was a monster grab for $6432 net profit.
What struck me as interesting, though, was that my biggest wins came when I was in first or second position. When I acted in last or even middle position, people would be more inclined to fold when faced with my aggressive play. I'm also still wondering if my monster pots were possible only because of the "schooling" effect the call-station to my left had on the loose/passives in the group.
Anyway, here are my stats for the 4 hours I played today:
Fold Percentages (Previous style's numbers in red):
Pre-flop: 35% 26%
Flop: 23% 25%
Turn: 9% 11%
River: 9% 7%
Round:
Saw the Flop: 65% 71%
Went to River after seeing the Flop: 47% 40%
Folded to a River Bet: 65% 47%
Showdowns won: 54% 47%
Outcome:
Avg. Big Bets per hand: 3.73 1.32
Hands Played: 187 1329
Win/Loss per hour: +1710.23 -37.90
Total Won/Lost: +6982.00 -897.00
What I notice: My hand selection tightened noticably, though I did make an effort to limp into flops when I could. Because of this, I was happier with the hands I ended up with and pushed to the river with them more often. However, a re-raise on the river forced me to fold a lot more often than with my previous style, which granted some rewards in showdown%, though a talented (and gutsy) bluffer could probably take advatage of this weakness.
The most stiking difference I notice is in the average number of big-bets I made per hand I played. A jump from 1.32 to 3.73 (nearly a threefold increase) is huge. This leads to big wins, and, when luck frowns on me, big losses. It seems to me, though, that the general trend is towards big wins. I think the aggressiveness in chasing away flush and straight drawing passive players is why this trend exists with this style. Nearly 4/7ths of my wins were with a high top-pair (A, K or Q) and a good kicker. However, playing against another tight/aggressive can crack this style pretty fast.
I'm gonna have to play with this style a little more to see if these profitable results can maintain themselves over time. 187 hands isn't a whole lot in the grand scheme of poker.
Anyone want to share their observations? I'm particulary curious about your own experiences with this style of play, as well as the guidelines you try to adhere to while playing it. I noticed, for instance, that playing this style at low fixed-limit tables seems about pointless, as you can't really scare anything off the flop or turn.... Hope to hear from some of ya.
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Posted Sun Jun 19, 2005 8:59 pm GMT by suitedaces84
| Tadzio wrote: | | So, today I decided to be tight/aggressive no matter what...I would limp in to see the flop if I didn't have a good starting hand... |
Try the preflop fold option more, much more.
Okay...?
Don't try to make hard and fast rules for playing certain hands.
Posted Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:09 pm GMT by Tadzio
| suitedaces84 wrote: | | Tadzio wrote: | | So, today I decided to be tight/aggressive no matter what...I would limp in to see the flop if I didn't have a good starting hand... |
Try the preflop fold option more, much more.
Okay...?
Don't try to make hard and fast rules for playing certain hands. |
How tight should I get when I've identified the table as being 80% loose players (they're pretty common in playmoney games)? For the first half hour I didn't play anything unless it was better than AJo, and those I folded if I missed the flop. This got me shortstacked so I had to push all in with A9s. When I won that I decided to loosen up and start limping the big blinds (BB) when possible. Is it incorrect to see a cheap flop with a mediocre hand? Seems to me if an average of 9 people are in the pot with a limp-in, you only need to get "lucky" one time in 9 to break-even, which seems like a reasonable expectation. Am I wrong to think this?
Also, about the "hard and fast" rules. My bets scale with the pot regardless of the hand I have to train myself to disguise the type of bet I'm making (info gathering vs gimme money). The reason I chose "8xBB preflop; 1/2 pot on flop, turn; varies on river" was because I was playing NL playmoney and you have to be pretty stiff with the bets to scare anyone away from any hand in those games (infact, 10xBB preflop would've served me better). I'm guessing that using the "half-pot" rule would be overkill in most real-money games-- and so were I to play one I'd lower the percentage-- but is this sort of "percentage" betting a bad strategy once you determine how much you need to bet to narrow the playing field?
I made those betting rules in an effort to protect myself from what I'm thinking is bad play. For example: If I flop a "nuts" straight and there's a flush-draw on the board, my gut-reaction is to slow play it (I think you guys refer to this as a "leak"?), which something like 35% of the time turns out to be a mistake vs a 4 flush, and can lose to a host of other hands as well. If I can force out the flush-draws I improve my odds considerably, and I identify those that have made hands and therefore make the game more predictable... I also have a chance to take the pot right there. Would you say that these "training wheels" I've built myself (in the form of these betting rules) are completely unnecessary?
Thank you for your response! I hope you can further answer my inquiries! 
Posted Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:24 am GMT by ViperX883
Strangely, the more loose players you have teh tighter you play. If everyoen plays loose, chips just get passed back and forth and the only one making money is the rake. When playing loose players, sit on very strong hands and then punish them when you get them. As a rule you should generally see 20% or fewer flops at a full table. When playing loose players, that number should be more like 12-15%.
Posted Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:55 am GMT by supafrey
wait... this is for play money?
....
Posted Mon Jun 20, 2005 10:20 am GMT by suitedaces84
| ViperX883 wrote: | | Strangely, the more loose players you have teh tighter you play. If everyoen plays loose, chips just get passed back and forth and the only one making money is the rake. When playing loose players, sit on very strong hands and then punish them when you get them. As a rule you should generally see 20% or fewer flops at a full table. When playing loose players, that number should be more like 12-15%. |
That's not exactly true. The number of cards you see should be dependant on the number chips in the average stack relative to the blinds and the overall aggressiveness of the table. On a loose aggressive table you would be wise to tighten up, however on a loose-passive table you can see way more cards. The reason is the table not charge you much to see them, and will pay you off very nicely if you hit. At an aggressive table you may end up paying way too much to see a flop with 6  7 and may be forced to dump the hand even if you flop you four flush or open-ended. You should be seeing 40% of the flops at most, probably less.
Posted Mon Jun 20, 2005 7:24 pm GMT by Tadzio
I tightened up some more and stayed disciplined. I only limped weaker hands if I was the BB and no one raised. I played for 2 hours and changed tables 4 times. I kept my betting about the same as yesterday, but changed my pre-flop bet to 10xBB in the hopes of making more people fold early. It worked a little bit.
Fold Percentages (Yesterday's numbers in red):
Pre-flop: 70% 35%
Flop: 11% 23%
Turn: 3% 9%
River: 2% 9%
Round:
Saw the Flop: 30% 65%
Went to River after seeing the Flop: 44% 47%
Folded to a River Bet: 50% 65%
Showdowns won: 92% 54%
Outcome:
Avg. Big Bets per hand: 13.02 3.73
Hands Played: 114 187
Win/Loss per hour: +6881.15 +1710.23
Total Won/Lost: +14848 +6982.00
Here was my best single win:
Hand 1003766653, Started at 6/20/2005 3:02 PM
Table 'Bozen': $10-$10 No Limit Texas Hold'em (Play Money)
Seat 0: Tadzio ($2,978.00 in chips)
Seat 1: deadh2002 ($540.00 in chips)
Seat 3: Vleigha ($2,441.00 in chips)
Seat 5: Money-Man42 ($1,000.00 in chips)
Seat 6: holdemleader ($1,047.00 in chips)
Seat 7: tommiguns ($710.00 in chips)
Seat 8: mike777xAK ($9,577.00 in chips)
Seat 9: henny sipper ($990.00 in chips)
*** Blind Bet Round *** :
Vleigha : Post Blind ($5.00)
Money-Man42 : Post Blind ($10.00)
*** Pre-Flop *** :
holdemleader : Fold
tommiguns : Raise ($250.00)
mike777xAK : Call ($250.00)
henny sipper : Call ($250.00)
Tadzio : Raise ($800.00) Ac Ad
deadh2002 : Fold
Vleigha : Fold
Money-Man42 : Raise ($990.00)
Money-Man42 : All In
tommiguns : Call ($750.00)
mike777xAK : Call ($750.00)
henny sipper : Fold
Tadzio : Call ($200.00)
*** Flop *** : 10d 3d As
tommiguns : Check
mike777xAK : Check
Tadzio : Bet ($1,983.00)
Tadzio : All In
tommiguns : Call ($125.00)
tommiguns : All In
mike777xAK : Fold
*** Turn *** :    7h
*** River *** : 8d
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: $6,360.00 | Rake: $3.00
Board: 
Tadzio bet $2,983.00, collected $6,360.00, net $3,377.00
deadh2002 lost $0.00
Vleigha lost $5.00
Money-Man42 lost $1,000.00 Shows   (a pair of Aces.)
holdemleader lost $0.00
tommiguns lost $1,125.00 Shows   (a pair of nines.)
mike777xAK lost $1,000.00
henny sipper lost $250.00
Posted Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:56 pm GMT by Fat Tony
looks like the more disciplined style is working for you. 
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