Blind stealing and defending |
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Posted Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:23 pm GMT by Iron Butt
Recently there was an interesting discussion about blinds started by Snoogins. That thread is here:
http://www.texasholdem-poker.com/forum/t11479/laggy-larry
if you want to see it. There were some items brought up that were a bit OT but I thought were interesting because I had never thought about them from that angle before and they seem to go against a lot of what I've learned about playing in the blinds.
One was that they can be a much bigger leak than I thought. See the other thread for details. Now this is based on kinda a weird proposition where you have a heads up limit game and one player is raising from the small blind every time, but still it hadn't occurred to me that it could be a major problem.
The other was that applying pot odds to the question, you should be calling almost every time your BB is raised. For instance, playing 20/40, with one raiser there's 60 in the pot to your 20 call (and of course more with any other callers or dead money in the pot), so you should be calling 1 raise in the BB with almost any hand. This goes against a lot of what I've learned about playing in the blinds, which tends towards once you put the blind in it's not yours anymore, so don't waste money defending blinds with weak hands, especially since you'll be in lousy position after the flop etc. It occurs to me that reverse implied odds need to be worked in here somewhere, but still something to think about.
Another thing is I don't think I'm seeing this kind of play much. Does anyone really call nearly every time their blind is raised, or try to steal more than once a round or every round at the same player?
Myself I'll try to steal with about any playable hand in decent position, but I try not to do it more than once per round or to the same player too often, and defending I just try to watch who's raising me and if I think they're stealing I start looking for a hand (i.e. lowering my starting requirements somewhat) to pop 'em back with... I'm wondering whether this approach might not be enough though.
So if you have anything to say about these things or stealing and defending blinds in general I'd like to hear it.
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Posted Wed Jun 22, 2005 5:15 pm GMT by NickFlynn
A lot of what was discussed in that thread regarding stealing/defending the blinds really only applies to a heads up situation from the small blind.
There is another situation where you really do need to take a good look at the pot odds with respect to the blinds and that is when you get short-stacked compared to the blinds.
- Nick
Posted Wed Jun 22, 2005 11:37 pm GMT by Dave B
when in a ring game, i will defend my big early, just to send a message, it may cost me chips on a few hands, but i will make it up over time.
i rarely steal w/ junk, I will shoot at pots w/ Ax or kx, but not very often. I will overvalue starting hands near the button if there are one or no limpers, raise w/ KJ QJ A9, but that isnt really stealing, it is raising when I believe I have the best hand or are in the best position to win a pot.
Posted Thu Jun 23, 2005 1:22 am GMT by age_of_sages
I realize that you're getting great pot odds to call a single raise with any hand from bb. But provided it doesn't look like a steal you have to figure you're up against a big hand.
Now say you call because you have great pot odds and you catch the flop in some way. It's quite easy then to spew out chips with a 2nd best hand when you're up against a set or whatever. I don't really think it's +EV to be calling a single raise from bb with crap hands provided it doesn't seem to be a steal attempt.
Anyone else agree/disagree with this and why?
Posted Thu Jun 23, 2005 6:26 am GMT by red_pen
(Limit only) Anyone who's been unfortunate to trawl thu' the stuff i wrote on the other thread will know my general take on defending the big blind. Simply stated it is "you should do it much more than your instinct tells you to". Based purely on pot equity (i know.. i know ) in a limit ring game say with a raise from the UTG (AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK, AQ) folded round to you on the big blind, a call with a 72o is not as big an error as it would seem (in fact if the call put you all in it's correct). Of course there are other considerations to take into account which would tend to make me fold this hand - position being the obvious one and that there are plenty of flops which I am not liking so it's not something I am doing all the time.
This has implications on how to play the bb when there is extra dead money in the pot - such as when someone posts an Xtra bb out of position.
if the UTG raises, & everyone else, including out of position man fold, as the BB you do not fold here ever. There, I've said it.
Posted Thu Jun 23, 2005 5:19 pm GMT by NickFlynn
| age_of_sages wrote: | I realize that you're getting great pot odds to call a single raise with any hand from bb. But provided it doesn't look like a steal you have to figure you're up against a big hand.
Now say you call because you have great pot odds and you catch the flop in some way. It's quite easy then to spew out chips with a 2nd best hand when you're up against a set or whatever. I don't really think it's +EV to be calling a single raise from bb with crap hands provided it doesn't seem to be a steal attempt.
Anyone else agree/disagree with this and why? |
Well, you've always got to play the situation. If the guy with the dust on his chips raises UTG and it folds around to me in the small blind with 45o, I'm probably going to lay it down. If it's folded around to Loose Larry on the button and he raises, I'm probably going to call. And of course, you still have to play some poker after the flop comes - I'm not going to go all crazy because I hit a 5 on the flop.
However, one of the important factors in making the decision is understanding the pot odds. When you are facing one bet with three in the pot already, you really should open up the range of hands you are willing to call with. It's not a "play any two" situation, but you should seriously be looking at playing more than 50% of your hands.
Here's a favorite example - this situation comes up a lot in loose passive limit games. There are 4 limpers and you are in the small blind. You look down and see Q  2 . You are getting 10:1 on your call here - folding this hand is a mistake. You call and now the goddamn BB raises, 4 callers around to you. You are feeling like an ass because now look what happened, you knew you shouldn't have completed, you are about to muck your cards, when you think about the pot odds again. You are closing the action, and getting 10.5:1 on your money - if the hand was good enough to make the first call, it's good enough to call now.
At least 9 times out of 10, you are just going to chuck this baby on the flop. But one of those times, that flop is going to come:
A K x
or
2  2  Q
and you are going to make it all back and then some.
- Nick
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