Did I get full value here? |
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Posted Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:24 pm GMT by ErinJeff
2/4 FL at a small casino. Max buyin is $200 and I sat down with $100 (all I was willing to lose). I'm almost exclusively a NL player so limit is tougher for me. I had a decent read on the table from watching for an hour for a seat to open up. There were only 2 tables in the place.
I've been sitting for 10-15 hands without playing a non-blind hand when I look down to see QQ in the BB. It folds around to the button who calls, sb raises to $8 and I reraise to $12 (pot=$36). Button consistently overvalued 2nd pair no kicker post-flop and SB was loose aggressive with a large stack. Flop comes QJx rainbow. I'll detail the action and ask for advice. I bet out $4 hoping to get raised and also since I was the preflop aggressor (pot=$48). I figured I get called by straight draws in addition to made hands below QQQ. Button and SB smooth call. Turn comes my 4th Q. I think at this point I have to bet as I think everyone will check behind if I don't. Both call again (pot=$72). River is a blank. I bet out $8 again and both fold. I take down a decent pot but could I have gotten more for my quads?
I didn't want to give a free card on the flop as the obvious straight draw is there. My guess is that the only way i could have made more on the hand was if an A, K or 10 came on the river.
Any thoughts?
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Posted Wed Jun 22, 2005 1:29 pm GMT by BeerWench13
It's tough to say really. That's not a great position to be in when you hit your hand. I have a feeling that both players probably would've checked had you not bet. You can't check on the river if for no other reason than you want to put a value bet out there with the hope that one of them will have hit something and will call. I think you played the hand well since you were out of position. I'm a NL player myself, so I'm sure you'll get better feedback from one of the regular FL players than you would from me, but that's my 2 cents.
Posted Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:09 pm GMT by age_of_sages
I think possibly the only way you get more money out of this pot you check the turn to show that you're scared someone made trip queens. Then perhaps button will bet and you can raise. But it would only work if the button bets if he sees you as weak, so you'd have to have a good read on him.
Otherwise, you played this just fine.
Posted Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:18 pm GMT by ViperX883
I agree. I think that you played the hand correctly. Generally, in limit hold'em aggression is the name of the game. When the flop comes with a QJx and you have trip queens, you bet. It is too easy for someone to have KT or AK and hit a straight against you. You need to make them pay for their draws.
Now, if the flop comes Q72 rainbow, then I check in that situation. You have the nuts now and there really isn't much anyone can call you with except AA, AK, and KK since it is unlikely that anyone has a Q in their hand. There is also no card that can hurt you on the turn here.
Anyway, you played correctly IMHO.
Posted Wed Jun 22, 2005 2:23 pm GMT by Loonbat
| age_of_sages wrote: | I think possibly the only way you get more money out of this pot you check the turn to show that you're scared someone made trip queens. Then perhaps button will bet and you can raise. But it would only work if the button bets if he sees you as weak, so you'd have to have a good read on him.
Otherwise, you played this just fine. |
I agree with Sage - I would check the turn (as if afraid of 3 Qs) and see what they try. Also, the river may make a hand for someone.
Posted Wed Jun 22, 2005 3:13 pm GMT by age_of_sages
Whoa, I'm not saying unequivically (sp?) check the turn there. ONLY check if you're fairly sure the button will bet behind you. Otherwise you're losing money. Even if you check the turn and button doesn't bet but sb bets out on the river, you still lose a bet because you'll have to raise him and then button will probably fold as he's not going to cold call 2 bets. Therefore, you're only getting the one bet out of sb as opposed to the two bets he got by betting the turn.
At best sb will call your raise and you break even, but that's still assuming sb bets out on the river.
Also they may be chasing the straight, and the only time you're going to get money out of them is on the turn when they think they still have outs, whereas if they miss their hand on the river you get nothing.
Posted Wed Jun 22, 2005 3:45 pm GMT by NickFlynn
You have to be really certain that the button will bet behind to check the turn. This is one of those times that being out of position sucks.
The only way I try to check raise the turn is if the button had raised on the flop. I think you did the best you could. You don't want to get screwed by the button checking behind you - barring a miracle card on the river that gives one of your opponents a hand, the turn is your best chance to get some more money in the pot.
In these kinds of hands, you need either a maniac in the hand with you, or someone to hit something on the turn or the river. You got them both to go to the river with you, which is about all you can hope to do.
- Nick
I always value check my nuts.
Posted Wed Jun 22, 2005 5:11 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
I think you played it pretty well. I agree that it's probably tough to induce a bet from someone else when there is a pair on the board, especially if no one else has made a real strong hand.
Posted Wed Jun 22, 2005 5:41 pm GMT by Phil14312
| age_of_sages wrote: | | Also they may be chasing the straight, and the only time you're going to get money out of them is on the turn when they think they still have outs, whereas if they miss their hand on the river you get nothing. |
Thats why you bet the turn. If someone had a hand on the flop it would've probably been raised behind you. Therefore, since everyone is probably drawing you must bet the turn out of position, letting a bet go by would be the worst way to play it. It sucks but you just can;t slow play here OOP and against what looks like weak hands. About the only thing you can hope for is someone thought he was slowplaying YOU with JJ. Now that would be sweet.
Posted Thu Jun 23, 2005 9:38 am GMT by Loonbat
Okay ... maybe I am missing a bet or two (on occassion), but let's pretend we don't know they're going to call the turn. Assume you're playing with decent players, who understand pot odds. The flush and open-ended str8 draws in this 4/8 game (not 2/4) don't have the odds to call the turn and so I don't want to chase them out. Also, a reraise preflop, bet on the flop and check on the turn is a common way people play (misplay?) AK, after missing a flop. A bet on the river may be seen as a steal at this point, depending on what this river brought.
Knowing that the turn bet is called by both changes the dimension ... not knowing this, would you still bet it? Mistakingly or not, I wouldn't.
Posted Thu Jun 23, 2005 11:28 am GMT by NickFlynn
The pot was $48 on the turn. Straight and flush draws both had the odds to call an $8 bet.
I think you HAVE to bet the turn. It's pretty obvious no one really has a made hand here, so the only way anyone pays you off at the river is if they hit something, the odds of which aren't very good.
- Nick
Posted Thu Jun 23, 2005 11:40 am GMT by Loonbat
My bad - the pot odds are close, about 16%, for the open ended out, taking 0 implied odds into account. No flush was discussed, as flop was a rainbow.
Still, iffy ... doubtful they both had KT, or T9. I go back to my original argument, especially with the description of the loose aggressive in the hand, and I'd let him take control of the turn.
Done with this thread :::chuckles:::
-Loon
Posted Thu Jun 23, 2005 12:10 pm GMT by NickFlynn
| Loonbat wrote: | My bad - the pot odds are close, about 16%, for the open ended out, taking 0 implied odds into account. No flush was discussed, as flop was a rainbow.
Still, iffy ... doubtful they both had KT, or T9. I go back to my original argument, especially with the description of the loose aggressive in the hand, and I'd let him take control of the turn.
Done with this thread :::chuckles:::
-Loon |
Not to keep beating this horse to death, but the "loose aggressive" guy just checked in front of you on the turn.
- Nick
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