first time - 11-player texas hold'em trouble |
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Posted Tue Jun 28, 2005 3:20 pm GMT by egervari
Hi everyone. I went to the casino to play no-limit texas hold'em and the tables were 11-players. I've only played online for the last 2 weeks with play money and with friends a few times, so I'm not the most experienced player. But I do understand odds, strategy, discipline, etc. Anyway, I brought in $65 and the table was $1/$2 blinds. I sat in on a lot of hands and played very tight. I played a few blind hands and KQ, QQ and KJ, but I think I only played 6 hands total in the 50 minutes of play.
One hand I decided to pay the blind was 8C 9C suited. The flop was 5D 7C 2S. I decided to fold the cards, but 10S JC came on the turn and river, so I basically folded away the nut straight. The pot wasn't big on this hand anyway I guess.
Then I got QS QD after a very long wait. I bet $15 before the flop to discourage people from joining, but 3 people called. The flop was 5S QC 7S. At this point, I figured I had the game in the bag. But I'm used to playing 3-5 players, not 11. I just wasn't thinking. I thought I had about an 75% chance to win this hand, so I went all in (which was another $40 in chips). It turns out that 2 people called my all-in. I'm like... f*ck. The turn and river created more raises and it came out to be JC AC. That sucks for me because one of the callers made his flush with 6C 8C and the other guy had AD AS. So I basically would have loss to both of them.
I know that the flush could have easily beat me. I didn't think someone would call a $15 bet preflop with that trash hand. I know the odds of a guy getting pocket aces with my pocket queens is a bad beat too, so I wasn't counting on it.
My lesson learned is that you have to play really tight at an 11-player table. I don't even think I want to play at these big tables anymore. It was during the day and I think every player there was a regular. I don't think I was the sucker, because even after those cards hit the turn and river, my odds of winning the hand were still high. I just felt I could have played better and I should have. Maybe I should have been more disciplined and only played AA, KK and AK and slowed played them to throw the others off.
I also learned that straights and flushes are much more common in 11-player games, so 3-of-a-kind isn't that big of a hand.
So... is there any things I can read that target 11-player, very tight games?
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Posted Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:59 pm GMT by Jernej Zorec
11 handed isnt that much different than normal 10 handed or 9 handed sure with more players hand values go down a bit but not like there should be a whole separate book for 11 players table.
set is still a set imo and to me that QQ hand seems to be played good from your part.
Posted Tue Jun 28, 2005 5:06 pm GMT by TheSalche
i gotta say that hand was not poorly played by you at all
him calling $15 preflop raise and then your $40 all in bet with just a straight draw ... not only that, a straight draw vulernable to a spade flush leaving him only 6 outs technically ... the AA had every right to call you, as he could have put you on Kings
sounds like you were playing tight enough, if you werent getting AK, AQ, AA, or KK then KQ, QQ, KJ are all understandable hands to play with
bad beat bud, keep playing the way you are and youll win
Posted Tue Jun 28, 2005 8:10 pm GMT by hookedupmonte
alot of things u fail to mention are what were the chip stacks of these people and what was the standard raise, usually the standard raise is about 15-25$ in a no limit game, and u bought in for the min barely with 65, that shows weakness right from the start. U might not of played the hand badly, but you dont have enough money to actually sit down with, everyone with huge stacks will know u will play super tight, so why not call with a drawing hand.
Posted Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:30 pm GMT by egervari
Well, you're right. Some of these guys had bigger stacks. But you can only buy up to $100 anyway. This is a small ante game and the average raise was about $10-15 (which is why I put in $15). And if I'm very tight, then why did they call? Didn't they just get it that I had 3 queens on the board? I mean, the guy with pocket aces was gambling to call it even. I wouldn't have went-all in with a pair of queens. He had to have known. That guy just got lucky.
And the guy with the 6 8 of clubs... that's just unbelievable. On the flop, he only had 3 clubs. In fact, even I had 3 spades. I had the same chance of getting a flush as he did. I understand he was looking for a straight, but that straight draw costs him $55. I play online a lot and I don't make my straight draws that often. If I were him, I probably would have folded the hand. But I'm not him i guess. I don't call/raise with a 6 8 of clubs with pocket queens and aces ahead of me, before or after the flop (unless it's the absolute nuts). Maybe he's Sammy Farha and just wants to see a flop, but after playing so much online pocket, about 3 out a 30 flops will work out for me on average and 2 of those are won with a big opening hand like AA, KK, QQ or AK. Given the odds, I just don't play junk.
The way I see it, they probably thought I landed my first queen of the day and had bad hands and got tired of not playing, so they probably put me on AQ or JQ. I mean, the odds are pretty damn good that I win at this point if they read that I had pocket queens. Betting is just gambling. It puts them at a 4 to 1 underdog basically. That's what was going on in my head. When I went all in, I envisioned everyone folding. I mean, I'm so tight and bet nothing, that it was a pretty obvious tell that I had a strong hand. But these guys gamble more I guess.
Posted Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:55 pm GMT by suitedaces84
Quick question: if you bet big enough to give someone bad odds to call would you rather them call or fold?
Posted Tue Jun 28, 2005 10:07 pm GMT by egervari
Depends. If they all folded before the flop, I'd been kind of pissed. But if they all folded before the turn, I would have picked up $45. If I had won the hand, I'd won $125. My figures don't include the money I put in the pot. But for me, making $65 to $100 would have been good enough. I just wanted to see what it was like and learn from the experience. I had made over $300,000 online with play money in a few hours and got it to a point where I wouldn't lose many hands (as in losing showdowns after the river) and I had good discipline to fold when I knew I could be easily beat, so I thought I could take that knowledge and skill and put to good use at the casino. But it's a fairly different game when it's live like that.
Posted Tue Jun 28, 2005 10:31 pm GMT by suitedaces84
| suitedaces84 wrote: | | Quick question: if you bet big enough to give someone bad odds to call would you rather them call or fold? |
| egervari wrote: | | Depends. If they all folded before the flop, I'd been kind of pissed. But if they all folded before the turn, I would have picked up $45. If I had won the hand, I'd won $125. My figures don't include the money I put in the pot. But for me, making $65 to $100 would have been good enough. I just wanted to see what it was like and learn from the experience. I had made over $300,000 online with play money in a few hours and got it to a point where I wouldn't lose many hands (as in losing showdowns after the river) and I had good discipline to fold when I knew I could be easily beat, so I thought I could take that knowledge and skill and put to good use at the casino. But it's a fairly different game when it's live like that. |
A few points:
1) I don't know how much money you have to play poker, but my guess is not enough. When you have the nuts, there is absolutely no reason why you wouldn't want to be called--other than you cannot afford to lose. I hope you don't think you did anything wrong on this hand. Folding because there is a possibility you will be outdrawn is insane.
2) The difference between the play is not caused by online vs live, it's caused by play money vs real money.
Posted Thu Jun 30, 2005 7:18 pm GMT by wyman13000
I don't see anything wrong with the way you played it. It's not like you tried to slow play it. In most situations, both a call and a fold would have benefited you, but these calls just happened to screw you over. Caro's law of loose wiring comes to mind. It basically says that the people you play with are ridiculous and and volatile, and you can never predict what they are going to do. Obviously, they should have folded (although laying down wired Aces is always difficult), but you really can't expect that people will ever do anything when it comes to poker.
Posted Thu Aug 04, 2005 9:20 am GMT by BeerWench13
I think you played the hand well and just took a bad beat. I'm not surprised in the least by either of your opponents calling your all-in on the flop. Sure the 86s had junk, but there was enough money in the pot for him to chase and there is no way, unless they're an awesome player or have a definite read on your hand, that a player is going to lay down A's on the flop.
I have to agree with a few statements previously posted. Firstly, play money and real money are as different as fire and water. Secondly, putting your money in when you have the best hand does not guarantee you're going to win. And, thirdly, you WANTED both of them to call you on the flop, or at least you should have. You're holding the best hand at the time. What you didn't want was for them to draw out on you.
We've all had experiences like this and could recount numerous occasions where this has happened. Just know that you played the hand properly but got unlucky. Try try again.
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