Posted Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:46 pm GMT by 1988 TR
$10/$20 2k no limit table.
I'm down about $2k on the night - Should have quit playing hours ago when I was up.... I just got to the table from the $5/10 $1k tables.
I have around $2,000 and the other two players have around $5,000.
I get A9  with 3 people playing. I raise the standard ($40) and get one caller. Flop comes 2  3  5 . Guy bets into me $70 and I call.
Turn comes 4 . Guy bets $350 and I call with the wheel and the nut flush draw.
River comes 7 . Guy bets $1,080. I have the wheel, but any six beats me.
Call or fold????
Did you know that participating in a poker forum can help you improve your own game? Be it by sharing experiences or simply asking for help, participation in a forum helps you focus and keep 'on topic' which will help you improve your game. You can learn from other players feedback and from their experiences. Why the THP poker forums? We offer one of the best managed texas holdem poker forums available, and the community within is far more friendly than those typicaly found on other sites. We've made a 'lurkers edition' of the poker forum available here on Holdem Poker Online, but we encourage all visitors to register and join in on the conversations on TexasHoldem-Poker.com
Posted Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:52 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
I can't believe he would really play 64 here, but it's possible I guess. I'd say a duplicate wheel is more likely, but discretion is the better part of valor I suppose.
Posted Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:56 pm GMT by 1988 TR
| xDiamond_CutteRx wrote: | | I can't believe he would really play 64 here, but it's possible I guess. I'd say a duplicate wheel is more likely, but discretion is the better part of valor I suppose. |
I can't put him on 64 - I don't know why he would bet $70 on flop with that kind of monster. A6s or something like that would seem more likely. But again with that turn bet, I have a hard time putting him on that kind of big hand. I kind of agree with you regarding the duplicate wheel..... He bet pot on the river.... So do I call the $1080 expecting to get half of the pot?
Posted Tue Jun 28, 2005 6:24 pm GMT by howzit
Preflop: I raise more or I limp.
Flop: Fold. Seriously.
Turn: the pot is $220 and he bets $350?
Call: I hate this line for the exact reason how this river action went.
Raise: it'll be all-in
Fold: No f*cking way.
Raise all-in and I don't think you have much of a choice. It sucks. But, what kind hands overbet the turn that you are beating? sets, two pair, wheel. Does he overbet w/the nuts?
River: I lean towards mucking knowing that he knows I have an ace and I'm looking at 2:1. If he's terrible or a maniac, mmmmmaaaaaaybe.
Aie, you butchered this one.
Posted Tue Jun 28, 2005 6:49 pm GMT by 1988 TR
OK
I call the river while saying to my buddy, I think I just lost the rest of it....
If I'm up big for the night, I probably just fold here. Being down makes me want to call. Yes, your swings definitely has an effect on how you play....
He shows KQ.
Won 1500 on the hand and won another 1100 in the next five minutes & then called it a night.
I butchered that one? Tell me how, lol.
Raise the turn when I have the nut draw & already the wheel? Don't see the sense in that.
Why fold the flop? After a pre flop raise and the pot is around $90 - To fold to a $70 bet there, you shouldn't be playing no limit - Especially at a 3 person table.
I had no info on the better since it was only my 8th hand or so with him.
He had about 5350 to start the hand & just thought he would strong arm.
Posted Tue Jun 28, 2005 6:55 pm GMT by 1988 TR
| howzit wrote: |
Flop: Fold. Seriously.
|
This is the worst part of the post...... Gonna lose a lot of money folding there.... After a pre flop raise, you want to lay it down with that kind of flop?
Posted Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:21 pm GMT by TheSalche
| 1988 TR wrote: |
This is the worst part of the post...... Gonna lose a lot of money folding there.... After a pre flop raise, you want to lay it down with that kind of flop? |
lay what down?
PP has you beat here, a better ace has you beat ... all you have on the flop is ace high with a decent kicker ... frankly you caught a very nice turn card
my guess is what the guy was thinking is that all you had was two high cards and he could bluff at the pot representing a pp ... and his play was very nice
and even if you call, he still has cards to outdraw you with
Posted Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:26 pm GMT by 1988 TR
| TheSalche wrote: | | 1988 TR wrote: |
This is the worst part of the post...... Gonna lose a lot of money folding there.... After a pre flop raise, you want to lay it down with that kind of flop? |
lay what down?
PP has you beat here, a better ace has you beat ... all you have on the flop is ace high with a decent kicker ... frankly you caught a very nice turn card
my guess is what the guy was thinking is that all you had was two high cards and he could bluff at the pot representing a pp ... and his play was very nice
and even if you call, he still has cards to outdraw you with |
Here is the thing though.
I don't put him on PP bigger than 88 given the pre flop action. So if he did play some of the garbage that flopped, I have 10 outs. Since it is heads up, I also think I have a good chance of still having the best hand (Which was the case).
Once I caught the turn, his big bet still made me think I had him beat. I didn't raise because :
1) Why scare him?
2) If he does have me beat, I still have the nuts draw, so let's see a river.
With the big bet on the river, I thought I could be beat, but was expecting to chop. The stone cold bluff was ballsy on his part, but it would have worked agianst a lot of players.
PS, after reading your post again, your avatar suits you well.
Posted Wed Jun 29, 2005 3:17 pm GMT by krakajak
well, i know nothing about playing $2000 NL, so take my advice with a grain of salt, but i would have raised the flop. his $70 bet just smells like an "i know you missed this rag ass flop and i'm gonna steal the pot from you" sorta bet. I'd raise to represent a pocket pair.
Also, I agree that you need to raise the turn. You have to figure that your opponent's most likly hand is another wheel. if you raise here, he will call, and you are free-rolling against him with your flush draw. if you wait fort the river and make your flush, he may shut down. although his shutting down is less likely since it came runner-runner.
Posted Wed Jun 29, 2005 3:33 pm GMT by 1988 TR
| krakajak wrote: |
Also, I agree that you need to raise the turn. You have to figure that your opponent's most likly hand is another wheel. if you raise here, he will call, and you are free-rolling against him with your flush draw. if you wait fort the river and make your flush, he may shut down. although his shutting down is less likely since it came runner-runner. |
A raise here would have killed my action as he was betting into me. If he has the wheel also, I'm not sure what raising would do. He can't be too scared of a flush since it was runner, runner and we were heads up - So I still feel like if I hit the river flush, I can still get a big call on the river. Plus I am still worried about a 6. If he has a six, I want to get out as cheaply as possible with the ignorant end of the straight. A raise kills the bluffing action.
Posted Wed Jun 29, 2005 3:33 pm GMT by snoogins47
What do you plan on doing when you call the flop and don't improve?
Posted Wed Jun 29, 2005 3:35 pm GMT by 1988 TR
| snoogins47 wrote: | | What do you plan on doing when you call the flop and don't improve? |
Calling his bluff. Catching an A, 9 or 4.
If you are going to play NL, you have to mix it up. Raising pre flop and then folding to a weak flop bet (less than the pot), is not my style - unless I completely miss.
Since I flopped a gut shot striaght and have 2 overcards, I'm not laying down to a weak bet at a 3 handed table.
Posted Wed Jun 29, 2005 3:50 pm GMT by howzit
misread the 3-handed part.
BTW, i don't know what i was thinking about pushing the turn.
Sorry.
Posted Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:01 pm GMT by snoogins47
| 1988 TR wrote: | | snoogins47 wrote: | | What do you plan on doing when you call the flop and don't improve? |
Calling his bluff. Catching an A, 9 or 4.
If you are going to play NL, you have to mix it up. Raising pre flop and then folding to a weak flop bet (less than the pot), is not my style - unless I completely miss.
Since I flopped a gut shot striaght and have 2 overcards, I'm not laying down to a weak bet at a 3 handed table. |
Thanks for the lesson, I'm forever in your debt. BTW, contrary to what you are insinuating, I have, and do play NL. Catching an A, 9, or 4 is improving. What do you plan on doing if you don't improve and he leads the turn? That's all I asked.
Posted Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:07 pm GMT by 1988 TR
| snoogins47 wrote: | | 1988 TR wrote: | | snoogins47 wrote: | | What do you plan on doing when you call the flop and don't improve? |
Calling his bluff. Catching an A, 9 or 4.
If you are going to play NL, you have to mix it up. Raising pre flop and then folding to a weak flop bet (less than the pot), is not my style - unless I completely miss.
Since I flopped a gut shot striaght and have 2 overcards, I'm not laying down to a weak bet at a 3 handed table. |
Thanks for the lesson, I'm forever in your debt. BTW, contrary to what you are insinuating, I have, and do play NL. Catching an A, 9, or 4 is improving. What do you plan on doing if you don't improve and he leads the turn? That's all I asked. |
If I don't improve on the turn (A,9,4 or heart) I fold to any sizeable bet.
Posted Thu Jun 30, 2005 12:10 am GMT by snoogins47
| 1988 TR wrote: | | snoogins47 wrote: | | 1988 TR wrote: | | snoogins47 wrote: | | What do you plan on doing when you call the flop and don't improve? |
Calling his bluff. Catching an A, 9 or 4.
If you are going to play NL, you have to mix it up. Raising pre flop and then folding to a weak flop bet (less than the pot), is not my style - unless I completely miss.
Since I flopped a gut shot striaght and have 2 overcards, I'm not laying down to a weak bet at a 3 handed table. |
Thanks for the lesson, I'm forever in your debt. BTW, contrary to what you are insinuating, I have, and do play NL. Catching an A, 9, or 4 is improving. What do you plan on doing if you don't improve and he leads the turn? That's all I asked. |
If I don't improve on the turn (A,9,4 or heart) I fold to any sizeable bet. |
Alrightie. Contrary to popular belief, while I AM an arrogant jackass, I try to lay off the personal attacks. I thought that my question was a good one to spark discussion, and I wasn't necessarily saying you played well, or badly. Sorry if it came off wrong: I have that tendency.
My first thought was that the flop call was a bit sketchy, especially since my first thought would be that you don't tend to get paid off very well when you improve, especially when you hit the wheel, and your overcard outs might put you in a world of hurt too.
However, given the fact that quite often you might still even have the best hand (The "donk-bet" bluff seems to be gaining in popularity... donk-bet, for those who don't know, is the stupid 2+2 term for when somebody who didn't have the initiative on the last round suddenly bets) this isn't necessarily bad.
My only fear is that the board is shitty enough that a pure bluff is probably going to follow through somewhat often on the turn, thinking that you might be calling with the exact sort of hand you're calling with. Calling will slow him down sometimes, though, which is nice.
You're right about this hand being interesting. I think the combined strength of your "draws" and the fairly decent probability that a pure bluff might slow down after the turn and basically hand you the pot and/or allow you a free river and possibly free showdown make a flop call pretty feasible.
On the turn, I think I lean toward raising myself. After his sizeable bet on the turn, I tend to think most people are going to give up if they're pure bluffing and you're not making anything on the river, and that a good deal of the time he's got something he's going to give you some action with (like another wheel, maybe a set or something.
A raise on the turn kills bluffing action, that's true, but I think he's a fool to fire a third barrel on a bluff after the way the hand played out. Did I mention that I really, really hate his river bet?
Given that you're in position though, I think he's probably going to be leading with a wheel, or maybe even a set if a heart hits, which is probably going to tie him down nicely to the pot. So I dunno. Of course, after seeing the river action, calling on the turn is vastly superior to raising, but given the stacks and position, I can't say I hate calling.
I think folding the river is out of the question though, as much as it sucks to call hehe. I don't feel like actually doing math, but the pot is roughly 2k and the call is 1k, right? So even if you never scooped, it's a question of whether or not he has a 6 more than a third of the time. Given the occasional scoopage, it's *probably* worth a call.
The flop call is interesting to discuss. I wish I could dig it up, but there was a hand I remember reading about (in fixed limit, no less) where somebody made a turn call with something along the lines of an Ace-High gutshot draw. He wasn't getting favorable odds to draw to his outs, and he planned on folding to a river bet unimproved. However, he made the caveat that sometimes his opponent was betting a draw, and would check to him on a blank river, allowing the unimproved gutshot to win the entire pot unimproved. It's clearly not the same situation, but similar reasoning can be applied to the flop action here.
Posted Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:05 am GMT by Silhouette
Was he to act before you or after you (position question)?
That's a tough situation.
After the flop, you're just under 40% to catch, so the pot odds justified the $70 call, but barely. (call 70 to win 150. 2.1:1 money for 1.9:1 odds or so).
But if he does have a pocket pair, then your A still has outs, but your 9 might not (weaker odds). If he played a lower pocket pair that caught, only the 4 helps you and odds say fold.
Tough call. I'm glad it worked out for you. Because it is two handed at this point I probably would have played it like you did.
Will someone check my math on those odds?
Posted Thu Jun 30, 2005 8:42 am GMT by howzit
i'm still torn between pushing and calling the turn. . ..
Not being at the table, I'm more apt to just call but 1988 is playing fast and his image is on the crazy/not stupid side of the scale, pushing here might get called pretty often from sets and two pairs to make it profitable.
I don't see a six here too often given the flop lead and the turn overbet. I can see something a pair+straight draw that turned into two pair.
Once again, how often does the villain overbet the nuts ON THE TURN?
I still don't like the flop call in a full game, but maybe somebody can convince me when it's three handed.
Posted Thu Jun 30, 2005 11:33 am GMT by 1988 TR
The biggest reason to fold on the flop wouold be :
1) I hate drawing (gut shot even) to the ignorant end of the straight. Especially since everyone plays aces, so even if I hit, I can expect a split.
2) If he has something like A3 and hit the 3 on the flop and an ace turns, I am in trouble.
I dunno, interesting hand... Just pretty ballsy of him to keep pushing the pot.
I still don't like pushing the turn though - I thought I might be behind & wanted to see my nuts draw through. If the board pairs on the river, I probably fold to the 1k bet.
Silhouette - As far as pot odds go, I feel you are missing the biggest part of odds as far as NL goes - Implied odds! I remember a hand once where I had 77 and the flop came something like A 10 3. There was a pretty decent opening bet, a call, and then I called. I was 100% certain my 2 opponents had a big ace - Possibly even A 10. I didn't have the pot odds to call, but knew if I hit a 7 (only 4.2% chance on the turn) I could win a huge pot. I caught a 7 on the turn and won 4k on the pot vs the A 10 the original better ended up having. I think I called $50 on the flop to see that turn (5/10 1k NL). So I didn't have the correct odds (money in the pot) to call, but felt I had enough implied odds to call - We got all in on the turn. 10 10 was a possiblity, but didn't feel like anyone had AA given the pre flop betting and flop bet (original raiser pre flop bet $50 on the flop - Wouldn't do that with AA).
Posted Sun Jul 03, 2005 2:15 pm GMT by THNKNBG
I think you were playing it well. The only cards you could really be worried about him playing are A6 or 66. Sure you caught a great turn card but with that huge bet of $350 he was obviously trying to push you off the pot and I don't think he was scared off with the 2 hearts out there. Congrats on your nice win...
Posted Sun Jul 03, 2005 4:34 pm GMT by ScanX
| 1988 TR wrote: |
I butchered that one? Tell me how, lol.
Raise the turn when I have the nut draw & already the wheel? Don't see the sense in that.
|
the sense is that he maybe has a set and u let him catch a full house "for free" ?
also :
"Silhouette - As far as pot odds go, I feel you are missing the biggest part of odds as far as NL goes - Implied odds!"
your implied odds go way way down with your flush draw though...if you hit your flush you have no certainty of being paid for chasing it. however it's runner runner so it might be more disguised
|
|
