What separates "them" from "us"? |
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Posted Fri Jul 01, 2005 7:57 pm GMT by gol4pro
I've been thinking about this question a lot lately. What is it that really separates the pro's ("them) from the amateur ("us"), but winning players?
Since I try to equate everything to golf, I consider myself to be about an 6 handicap poker player. I'm a pretty decent player, with most of the right tools to be good, but I'm not "scratch" (a 0 handicap golfer-- a very good amateur), or near-pro level. Yet I'd like to be.
And I really don't think I'm alone. Although we have great higher stakes players like 1988 TR, ScanX, and howizit, we're more or less in the same boat. We're all pretty much good amateurs that would love to get to that next level.
In golf, I managed to get there. I don't know how, but it was extremely gradual. But I'm hoping I can actually figure it out with poker.
I guess pro's make better reads, more timely bluffs, and are better value bettors. But what really separates them?
I don't think it's their analysis. Seems like us on the forum can almost always pick any given situation apart from top to bottom, and figure out all the options. Sometimes we don't figure out the best option, but we almost always cover it.
I don't think it is psychology either. Although it clearly makes quite a large difference to better players, there is little-to-no psychological aspect to online poker in anything below NL 200. There may be a few isolated circumstances where you just showed a big bluff or something, but it's usually just how your hand and your opponent; not what he thinks you think he's thinking.
Is it their ability to remain level handed under pressure? I think this plays a small role. I tend to play in an akward manner when deep stacked, much different from my normal game. If I could get rid of this tendency, I'd be a much more profitable player, but that can't be the only thing.
Any ideas?
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Posted Fri Jul 01, 2005 8:57 pm GMT by ScanX
I dont think I'm high stakes players or a very good player.
I just try to do those 3 things the best I can and maintain them :
- patience
- discipline
- bankroll management
it's all I can say to u :)
Posted Fri Jul 01, 2005 10:05 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
Experience. End of story. Honestly... you can read the books, watch the tapes, calculate the odds, learn the theory... but you have to apply it in real life situations and just experience a lot of Poker before you become great. Hell, I've only played Poker seriously for about 9 months. It will probably be 2+ years more before I'm even a tenth the player of someone who plays 40+ hours a week with the greatest players in the world, or wins bracelets at the World Series.
Posted Fri Jul 01, 2005 10:37 pm GMT by 1988 TR
Good question.
I think the biggest difference for me is a few things :
1) I'm a CPA with 10+years out of college. I'm not ready to quit working and play full time. Too much risk.
2) I hate to admit it, but balls. I just haven't had the balls to throw down my money for any of the WSOP events yet. I keep telling myself that I will play more "live" tournies so I get more of that experience. But playing on line is so effortless (can play in my PJ's, etc.)  , it is pretty hard to get motivated to go play live games - That are so much slower.
I plan on playing next year in at least one WSOP event. My friend just played in Tuesday's 2k NL tourny. He didn't do well (Flopped open ended with a flush draw, paired on the turn, but missed the river - Bluffed all in, but the opponent caught 2 pair on the river & he was done). Although he lost, I admire his guts to go play - First guy I personally know to go do that.
I've read all the books, played consistently for 3 years now. I think I am ready. I only played in one live tourney this year - $100 buy in with 350 people & came in 3rd (After the final 7 decided to settle). I've played 2 non-casino tournies this year - won a $100 buy in neighborhood game with about 70 people (played in 2 garages and driveways, lol) and won another warehouse game for a $60 buy in with 100 people.
So I think I am ready..... Time to Just Do It!
Posted Sat Jul 02, 2005 1:36 pm GMT by zeroswarm
Actually one of the most interesting and IMPORTANT posts I have seen on the forum.
I'm not going to give my reply here. I recently glanced at my number of posts and realised I am approaching 500. So I have been thinking of making an effort to mark my 500th post with something worthwhile. My thoughts have come down to pretty much the very same puzzling question that gol4pro has raised in this thread. I'm still contemplating the true answer but I think I'm getting there. You will be able to read it soon enough whatever it may be (if u can be bothered).
In the mean time this thread should be transferred to the general poker chat section where more people will probably see it.
Well done, gol4pro.
Posted Sun Jul 03, 2005 8:13 am GMT by krakajak
Pros think quicker, and are better under pressure. you say that we are pretty good at figuring out the ins and outs of any situation, but we have time to sit back and think, and there is no pressure on us. it is a lot different to say "you should have called his push," than it is to make the right decision when have thousands of dollars at stake, and only a minute or two to make up your mind.
Pros are WAY more observant than most of us. When I play, I notice the really bad players, and the really good ones, but the average players just fade inot the background. it is hard to keep up with 10 people at once. after a session, you could ask me, "what type of player is so and so?" and i could probably only give you a good answer for 4-5 players. a pro could tell you about every player at the table.
Pros are more confident. For example, suppose i have a low pocket pair, and my opponent raises me. I'm either going to push pre-flop or fold, because I know that (1) I'm not getting odds to hit a set by just calling, and (2) overtcards are bound to come, and I'm not going to know whether my opponent has them or not, so even if he misses, it will be easy to bluff me. a pro, on the other hand, won't be afraid to play a flop with a low pocket pair. he might just call a raise, or might re-raise without going all-in. he knows overcards are going to come, but he trusts his ability to analyze the situation, and to not get suckered in when his opponent hits or bluffed out when his opponent misses.
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