to represent or no to represent, that is the question |
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Posted Fri Feb 13, 2004 12:58 pm GMT by nicthestick
I have spent some Ultimate Points on Ultimate gear....hat, shirt and Jacket. I know, I know, a worthless waste of points, and i should be saving for the $10,000, but i am i little nutty. The question is, when you go to a Brick and mortar room, do you represent your onlline room? are you going to get an edge from the locals who think that online players cany play? Around here, we have an Indian casino with a small poker room that has the same 45 mopes in there every day. Do I get an advantage by looking like an online player, or do I go with the clueless fratboy look? thanks
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Posted Fri Feb 13, 2004 1:35 pm GMT by american mutt
I would'nt run in there telling everyone, but if someone
asked I'd tell them. I'd rather represent the hi stake
home games, or the final table at WPT. 
Posted Fri Feb 13, 2004 1:51 pm GMT by groton
sure if u want to.
iv been known to waire my WTP Foxwoods events Tshirt and hat
at Foxwoods from time to time.
dont notice much change on how thay play vs me then when i go for my young frat boy look.
Posted Fri Feb 13, 2004 2:55 pm GMT by mindgame
I think this is an interesting question.
I am a casino regular. Here's my take (but remember that it doesn't necessarily mean anyone thinks like I do):
I've played a lot of poker. I have absolutely no interest in online poker...not sure why or why not...just holds no appeal. One thing is that I've seen a lot of cheating in my life and I don't see how anyone could stop a group of 3 or 4 guys...or one guy with three of four computers...from collaborating and fleecing a few people who might wander into their/his lair. In fact, I personally know just enough about computers to have NO confidence in the reliability and integrity of online poker at all, ever...
Anyway...the fact remains that guys online can see an extraordinary number of poker hands, for not a great deal of money, in a very short time. I am seeing guys come into the casino--guys in their 20's--who have more poker experience (and savvy) than they should ever have any right to have. Experience that took me 20 or 25 years and a great deal of money to earn. Like it or not for us older players, that's the poker world of 2004 and beyond.
This has turned my poker world upside down. See, you young 20-something bucks used to be easy money. Even if you played a lot, you usually played only with guys your age...all of them too cocky to study the game seriously, do any reading, do any thinking much at all past the table they were sitting at and how to beat it. Now you come in at a far more sophisticated level. You've played as many hands of poker, and with as many different players, as I did when I was in my 40's. Man, that just AIN'T fair! Add to that your increased physical stamina, your youthful mental agility...damn...that is a PAIN!
So I have to be wary. I see young, cocky internet hotshots come into that poker room and--even green to the casino environment--they play a damn tough game. They have to be taken seriously. Frequently they can't be "taken" at all. So I probe a bit with new guys...I need to know how much they've been on the internet...how many hours they're playing a week and for how long. I try little ploys, remarks and asides to determine who they've been reading, if anyone. (Example: where does he look when the flop comes? If the player's staring at the center of the table he hasn't read Mike Caro, "Book of Tells"... very, very useful thing to know--if he's looking at the players, like I am, we end up locking eyes and it's "Roll your sleeves up bro'. You're going to have to work a little harder tonight.") I have to know what I'm dealing with.
You want to tell me all that with your f*ing shirt?????? Please, please do. Some players may be intimidated. I don't think it's worth it. They're easy enough anyway. It's me you want to worry about. Give me NOTHING! I am there to crush you.
Posted Fri Feb 13, 2004 3:16 pm GMT by Dave B
Hey Mindgame...what kind of tells do you look for. I have tried this in live games, but since I only have 4-6 hours at a time, it is often too hard to get enough looks at how everyone plays to find any pattern before I need to head for the door.
I tend to watch the most active and aggressive players much closer. But I often find myself watching TV waiting for the next hand to come. Is there some quick pick ups or common mistakes people make?
I would love to have an experience player try to pick me apart at the table and tell me later what they see. I am sure there are things that I may do without even knowing.
Posted Fri Feb 13, 2004 3:53 pm GMT by mindgame
You know...you and I do talk a bit...AND...you've been IN my casino.
I've not seen you, but my guess is your one of these cocky young hotshots that are already giving me more trouble than a poor old fart like me deserves! So why the hell am I even giving you guys all this amunition in the first place???? So you can blow my f*ing brains out???
(The ego, you see, is a powerful, dangerous, and potentially self-destructive thing...and I've got a ego that exceeds both reason and experience. My brother-in-law flat out quit inviting me to his games because I insisted on turning his stable of patsies into better players. As he gracefully put it when I'd noticed the invites had stopped "You talk to goddamn much!")
But just to answer your question...Caro or NOT...I don't put a lot of faith in tells. They just don't seem to be very reliable. Caro is useful because he forces you to make an important distinction: Is this man "acting" or not? 99% of the time a player is just playing...he's got nothing much to do...nothing much to hide...no reason to "act." BUT when he's in a hand and he 1) has a monster or 2) has nothing at all...he has something he wants to hide. So he MAY want to put on a little act. If you sense a man is "acting" then you have to decide what exactly he wants you to think, and why.
Now the problem is that a lot of average players want to act like they've got a big hand precisely because they HAVE one. They like being the big guy on the block and they want you to know it. Then later, when they have a hand that misses or never was really any hand at all, they will try to act exactly the same way. When are the really acting???? It can be hard to tell.
Now,,,there are a lot of little things that you can watch that will drive you nuts...a guy picks up his chips early because he wants to raise...then all of a sudden picks them up...and FOLDS. But here's something to watch...I see it a lot with beginners:
Player keeps checking his/her cards throughout the hand...maybe five or six times. Now here's a hand and he/she never picks it up after the intial peek. It's a pair every single time.
Posted Fri Feb 13, 2004 4:04 pm GMT by american mutt
I'm 28 and I started playing poker when I was like 7 or 8.
My grandfather, dad, brother and I would play all the time.
I just started playing online, for fun only, about 2 months
ago. I put no skill or faith in my online playing. Face to face
is the only real way to play. One thing I do, in any home game
is remember my cards. I only ever take one peek at them.
I'll look at them and think 'ace clubs, Queen hearts.' about 3
or 4 times, then just play the other players. I always remember
my hand, and that throws people off. Also, the initial peek at
the cards, I'm looking all around the table. I wait for people to
put their cards down, then look at mine and show whatever
reaction I feel like. My skill is learned face to face, I agree that
online punks go in to a room with many more circumstances
in their head, but no real experience on how they would play
those hands if it was their $1,000 dollars in chips.
Posted Fri Feb 13, 2004 4:18 pm GMT by Dave B
I guess one advantage that I have is that I am 32 but look 45. My hair started going gray at 16. So I think that I instantly get more respect than if I looked my age. BTW-I tend to give the older players more respect, some deserve it, some clearly dont.
The one thing that I noticed is that some of these young kids play like they just read a book and are ready to take over the world. They will raise w/ nothing, then reraise and dont figure out why you dont lay down your top pair w/ a nice kicker.
The one thing that I think is as important as anything in a live game is table image. Once people see you bluff once, you need to win 5 hands before you get your respect back.
Posted Fri Feb 13, 2004 11:16 pm GMT by nicthestick
im not sure if you all understand my question....... I am not trying to intimidate anyone. I want everyonr in the cardroom to think that I cant play a lick. I am 34, and have been playing live poker in home games since before High School. I just started online in the last 6 months, and have been enjoying the numerous hands that i get to see compared to a live game. My last trip to a cardroom was a sucessful one, due in part to the fact that I look like i am in my early 20s, and can act clueless, like a Fratboy. I want to expand my edge as much as possible against the "regulars" at the casinos. Seeing that Mindgame gives the online player alot of respect, i think the "gear" will stay in lockdown until we host another home game.
Posted Wed Feb 18, 2004 9:29 am GMT by JohnnyCache
An interesting twist on looking young: I look dumb. I'm 6'6", 300#s, and I have a mild southern accent. I just sit there looking like a building and don't use any big words, tell a couple of folksy off color jokes, and nobody assumes I know what I'm doing.
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