How to play a straight + flush draw |
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Posted Fri Feb 13, 2004 5:14 pm GMT by myonker
Last weekend I hosted a small NL tourney with some decent players and some beginners. (I being somewhere in between I think)
I was in a middle position with a Ks 10s, limped in as did everyone else.
The flop came Qd, Js, 5s giving me an open ended straight and Flush draw. person in front of me checks, I do the same, and then someone behind raises $80. Everyone folds and I call (at this stage I had about $400).
Turn comes up Junk. I'm playing the guy as having an AQ cause, knowing how he plays these types of hands the same eveytime. I check, he raises $80 once again. Thinking that I have 16 outs (3 K's, 4 A's, 9 spades) I call.
Flop comes up with junk again, not getting the straight or flush, I check then fold after he raised.
How should I have played this hand? I was right, he had the AQ off suite (he actually showed me).
have I calculated the outs correctly?...
Later in the game a similar situation came up again with the same results, I didnt drop as much $ on it though.
Was I wrong to chase it?
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Posted Fri Feb 13, 2004 5:39 pm GMT by Dave B
tough call-much depends on where you are at and how aggressive you want to be. I think that checking then calling his bets was the wrong play.
After the flop you had a little over 50% chance of hitting. I would have bet 120-150% of pot. If he calls you, then be careful-but you would need to fire another bullet after the turn. If he raises, then either go all in believing that it is a 50/50 prop or fold. That call depends on where you are at in the tourney, early/late, big or small stack.
Another option that I dont like playing, but works against me at times is to check raise after the flop. Either all in or double his bet. This should make him put you on 2 pair or a set. If he calls, then you know he has the goods.
By not taking the lead in the hand w/ a strong bet (at any point), you showed weakness and allowed him to push you off the pot.
Posted Fri Feb 13, 2004 8:12 pm GMT by Poker_Vendetta
How much money was in the pot...if you hit your straight or flush draw, how likely was it you were going to come out with a winner? If you hit it how much were you going to extract? You should go back and ask yourself these questions and see if it was a correct play. I mean it certainly would have been nice if an ace popped up there and you gained a few more bets from your opponent. But IMO, like I said, you must combine at LEAST those three things and gauge if you play will have success in the long run...against ANY random hand.
Posted Sat Feb 14, 2004 3:44 pm GMT by karasz
your outs are wrong...
you have 3 K's 3 A's 9 spades 3 9's
18 outs... with 2 cards left...
i would have raised after the flop instead opf check
Posted Sat Feb 14, 2004 4:46 pm GMT by highscty
I like your play, considering your read on him. If this was a cashgame, you want to put your money in with the best of it ( which you had.) Because it was a tournament, you generally don't want to risk a lot of chips until youve hit your draw.
Posted Sun Feb 15, 2004 2:15 am GMT by nicthestick
That is a HUGE draw. A very prime time for a semi-bluff. As Dave suggested, either take the lead in a big way, or check raise him. I dont know this guy, is he the type to put all his chips at risk with top pair and top kicker with a Q and a J or the board? if he is, then maybe not so aggressive. With a good player, you will be able to get them to let that hand go a lot of the time with a big raise or reraise. Just my opinion
Posted Tue Feb 17, 2004 2:28 pm GMT by myonker
yeah he would have risked it. I played him earlier in the game for having an A with a high kicker. I made a pair of 3's after the flop with two other low cards (7 5 or something like that). He hit the A on the turn and went all-in. He plays loose agressive but finds the right times to play it like that. He would have called anything I threw at him minus an all-in call.
I'm not really concerned about the hand and how it played out per say. What I'm interested in is opinions on how others would have played it.
Thanks karasz for the correct "outs" i had forgotten about the straight here.
Lets say for example you get raised in front of you, or check raised. with the 18 outs would you have played this out...re-raised over the top?
One of my problems is that I tend to get very tight-conservative with how I bet. I find myself doing probably the worst thing you can do in hold em, and thats calling. In some situations i know it would be best to raise/re-raise, but in the back of my head its always "i cant afford to loose chips like this" essentially i get gun-shy. this probably should be a separate thread but i thought id throw that out there
thanks for the responses too...i appreciate it
Posted Wed Feb 18, 2004 12:48 am GMT by nicthestick
I think it gets back to who you are playing. If the guy is not afraid to call with a single pair, then you are wagering your tournament life on a draw. If he will go away in the face of a big bet, I say make it, and take your chances. As far as calling a raise in front of me in this situation, it goes to the Gap concept that Sklansky is always talking about. It takes a MUCH better hand to call a bet than to make a bet. In the above situation, if I were raised, I would reraise allin or muck. Make the other fellow do the guessing. But i think that check/calling is not an option. it makes your hand too readable..... imho.
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