Noob thoughts about small suited connecters. |
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Posted Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:46 am GMT by p3nguin
Maybe this has been covered and is common knowledge, or maybe I am just wrong, but hey I am new and going through the exercise was good for me anyway.
I was playing mostly no limit SnG’s for awhile, and I almost always played my small suited connecters (SSC’s hereafter).
For the past month I have only been playing limit ring games (very low stakes) and I have noticed that I don’t “like” SSC’s as much as I used to. This was just a gut feeling, so I decided to investigate.
You have an 11% chance to flop 4 to a flush and a 4% chance to flop 4 to a straight. You also have about a 3% chance to flop the straight, flush or better. There is a 1.5 % chance you will flop a set.
This means you have a 19.5% chance to flop a winning hand or a good draw. According to what I have learned here that means I need 5 callers in order to bet in limit poker correct?
So let’s say we flop 4 to the flush. I have a 30% chance or so of hitting a flush on the turn and river combined. I find it very difficult to get information after the flop in limit. If I bet someone else with 4 to the flush calls. If I check so do they. If they are 4 to the same flush, likely I am beat even if I hit. So I need 3 callers on the turn AND the river in order to bet, and I could be beat already.
Flop 4 to the straight? Well now I have 8 outs and a 30% chance of making my straight on the turn and river. I need 3 callers on both streets.
In NL I liked playing them because you could force the pot odds to be good and when these hands hit you can get a ton of chips off of someone with 2 over card pairs because they never see it coming. In limit it seems like I can’t get a good return because even when I hit I am not getting a “big pot” I am just winning a pot.
I am sure I must be missing something because I hear all the time that SSC’s should be played, so please correct me and be gentle.
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Posted Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:53 am GMT by Soup_dog
In Dan Harrington's book on tournament play, he talks about liking to play those hands in late position. He says those are the hands that will make or break you in a tourny because when they hit you will usually win big.
Just be sure to be ready to lay them down if you dont hit the flop big. Also dont play them out of position becuase you will probably get raised before it gets back around to the blinds. On the button he even recommends some non-suited connectors.
And here I thought he was a conservative player!
Posted Tue Jul 12, 2005 12:43 pm GMT by Skribbles
The time I like to play these hands is when I'm sure that someone has AA or KK. You know that when they see a flop of 267, they think they're golden. When you're sure you are up against a hand like this, its easy to lay it down if you miss.
Posted Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:23 pm GMT by suitedaces84
| p3nguin wrote: | | You have an 11% chance to flop 4 to a flush and a 4% chance to flop 4 to a straight. You also have about a 3% chance to flop the straight, flush or better. There is a 1.5 % chance you will flop a set. |
Minor correction: you have roughly a 11% chance at flopping an open-ended, and only around a 1% chance at flopping the straight. There's also 4% chance of flopping two-pair. Add it all up and it's somewhere in the area of 22% of flopping a quality made hand or a strong draw.
Posted Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:39 am GMT by p3nguin
| Skribbles wrote: | | The time I like to play these hands is when I'm sure that someone has AA or KK. You know that when they see a flop of 267, they think they're golden. When you're sure you are up against a hand like this, its easy to lay it down if you miss. |
How can you put them on AA or KK preflop in limit?
And thanks for the correction Aces, when I said "You also have about a 3% chance to flop the straight, flush or better." I didn't mean there was a 3% chance at each hand, just the you have a 3% chance at hitting one of those hands on the flop.
Posted Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:11 am GMT by Skribbles
| p3nguin wrote: | | Skribbles wrote: | | The time I like to play these hands is when I'm sure that someone has AA or KK. You know that when they see a flop of 267, they think they're golden. When you're sure you are up against a hand like this, its easy to lay it down if you miss. |
How can you put them on AA or KK preflop in limit?
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I missed the limit part.
But you could always 3-bet them and if they cap there is a very high chance at it.
Posted Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:34 am GMT by p3nguin
| Skribbles wrote: |
I missed the limit part.
But you could always 3-bet them and if they cap there is a very high chance at it. |
And that is kinda my point, 3 bet when you have a 22% chance of flopping a made or good drawing hand?
I am still a fish, but that sounds like it will cost in the long run. Am I wrong?
Posted Wed Jul 13, 2005 11:11 am GMT by suitedaces84
| p3nguin wrote: | And that is kinda my point, 3 bet when you have a 22% chance of flopping a made or good drawing hand?
I am still a fish, but that sounds like it will cost in the long run. Am I wrong? |
Nope, you're right. Theoretical situation: there's a raise from EP and 5 callers and you three bet from the button with 7  8 . You've got six others in the hand and you're only a 4:1 dog to hit your flop. Of course hitting your flop does not mean you will win the hand. So, yeah, you're (probably it's possible that you're gaining) losing in the long run here, but not by a lot. When you factor in the value of decption and being a general nuisance to the table it's not a bad idea at all. If you're going to do this:
1) don't do it often
2) do it with position
3) do it in multiway pots only
Posted Wed Jul 13, 2005 1:01 pm GMT by p3nguin
| suitedaces84 wrote: |
Nope, you're right. Theoretical situation: there's a raise from EP and 5 callers and you three bet from the button with 7 8 . You've got six others in the hand and you're only a 4:1 dog to hit your flop. Of course hitting your flop does not mean you will win the hand. So, yeah, you're (probably it's possible that you're gaining) losing in the long run here, but not by a lot. When you factor in the value of decption and being a general nuisance to the table it's not a bad idea at all. If you're going to do this:
1) don't do it often
2) do it with position
3) do it in multiway pots only |
So keep this in my bag of tricks for special occcasions only? Gotcha, and good advice.
Speaking of deception, I have noticed that if I play a crappy hand (pair of 9's with two overcards) all the way to showdown early then tighten up people are more willing to call my bets for awhile when I hav real hands. Is this a bad habit I should break, or is it viable strategy?
Posted Thu Jul 14, 2005 4:55 am GMT by Muck
| p3nguin wrote: | | Speaking of deception, I have noticed that if I play a crappy hand (pair of 9's with two overcards) all the way to showdown early then tighten up people are more willing to call my bets for awhile when I hav real hands. Is this a bad habit I should break, or is it viable strategy? |
Advertising is very dependent on the table. If losing a little to build a reputation allows you to make a lot later on by trapping then do it.
I normally don’t bother advertising because most of the players I’m against aren’t observant enough to realise how tight I’m playing and when they do catch on I’ll loosen up and start to steal rather than change my image (but bare in mind I’m more of a tournament player than ring).
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