Hand Analysis - 2/4 NL $400 max buy-in 6-handed table |
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Posted Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:07 am GMT by screwthepooch
Player A gets dealt JJ utg and raises to 14. Everyone folds except the Player B who is on the button. He just calls. Pot is $34
flop comes Qd, 9d, 6h.
Player A bets pot $34.
Player B raises to $64
Player A calls. Pot is now $162
Turn comes 3h...(Qd, 9d, 6h, 3h)
Player A checks.
Player B pushes all-in for $268
to be continued after some analysis...
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Posted Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:15 am GMT by Soup_dog
I would have only bet about 50% of the pot after the flop to try and get a read on the other player. I probably would have called a min-raise, but not much more. Fold after the push. I have been burned by JJ WAY to often to get more agressive.
Posted Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:22 pm GMT by 1988 TR
Classic poker decision..... Is he on a st or flush draw or does he have the JJ beat.....
Posted Tue Jul 19, 2005 12:24 pm GMT by howzit
um fold?
you're crushed or he's drawing very live against you.
Posted Tue Jul 19, 2005 11:17 pm GMT by gol4pro
Without a read, I fold the flop.
You're either not very far ahead or WAY behind. And I'm leaning towards way behind without a read.
Posted Tue Jul 19, 2005 11:37 pm GMT by screwthepooch
Thanks for your replies. I was actually player B. I was holding 7,8 off-suit and Player A called my all-in with his pocket Jacks. I missed the river (which was a 3c) and lost the pot. I just don't know how this guy could put a read on me based on my action that said..."I should call this guy!"
The only thing I can guess is that this guy doesn't like money very much.
ScrewThePooch
Posted Wed Jul 20, 2005 5:11 am GMT by Jernej Zorec
somehow it seems to me u dont like the money either
Posted Wed Jul 20, 2005 11:52 am GMT by 1988 TR
He probably put you on a flush draw..... Some guys just won't let go of big PP - Especially to one over card that is not an ace.
Posted Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:25 pm GMT by howzit
did you get picked off before this hand w/a bluff?
Also, how quickly did you raise the flop? Timing is crucial when you're semi-bluffing as is the size of the raise.
Posted Wed Jul 20, 2005 4:04 pm GMT by screwthepooch
I hadn't been at the table for more than a few hands at the time I made the play, so I doubt he had a read on me as a bluffer. I don't recall how fast I made the flop raise, but it was probably pretty quick as all I had to do was click the raise pot button. What's your line of thinking on the timing of the raise?
ScrewThePooch
Posted Wed Jul 20, 2005 5:26 pm GMT by howzit
how quick do you raise w/two pair or better?
Posted Wed Jul 20, 2005 10:26 pm GMT by ScanX
sorry to be so straightforward but you both are reckless players who pay my bills
1) someone who cannot fold 2nd pair
2) your play works well on full handed table, big (semi-)bluffs are too risky at 6 handed in my opinion unless u have a very good read of ur opponent (which isnt the case as u just sat).
I agree that him overbetting the flop is kinda weird but u just movin in on turn isnt good either.
You're called only if you're beat and you leave yourself no exit.
Posted Thu Jul 21, 2005 4:10 pm GMT by 1988 TR
| ScanX wrote: | sorry to be so straightforward but you both are reckless players who pay my bills
1) someone who cannot fold 2nd pair
2) your play works well on full handed table, big (semi-)bluffs are too risky at 6 handed in my opinion unless u have a very good read of ur opponent (which isnt the case as u just sat).
I agree that him overbetting the flop is kinda weird but u just movin in on turn isnt good either.
You're called only if you're beat and you leave yourself no exit. |
So he made a semi bluff on this hand where EVERYONE who responded to the hand said you have to fold JJ here......
Also, I'm guessing he did have an exit - 8 outs on the river!
Not the worst play I have ever seen - Most players won't call an all in with an under pair to the board.
Posted Thu Jul 21, 2005 4:58 pm GMT by snoogins47
| ScanX wrote: |
You're called only if you're beat and you leave yourself no exit. |
This is obvious based on the fact that he has 8 high. The question is, are there enough BETTER hands (or the real, real oddball worse hand) that will fold to make this worth it?
I personally think the flop raise needs to be larger, or you need to take the free card. The minraise is tricky because legitimate hands will always call it, as will mediocre hands often. With a larger raise, if you're called, you can know that you're probably going to want to take the free river card if you miss, and it weeds out a lot of the mediocre hands alot more successfully: people love peeling cards.
Either way, I don't call with JJ there without a read, but if he had AQ or QQ, we never read this post.
Posted Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:03 pm GMT by howzit
it's crazy, which i like but .. . .. . .
The biggest problem i have w/raising the flop is the swelling of the pot while essentially minraising him. So that leaves a pot of $160 w/$260 in teh back w/only an OESD. Here's another hand where min-raising screwed the OP.
I think there's plenty of room to steal this pot on almost any scare card. With a call behind, any diamond, queen, King, Ace, straight card are all outs for our boy. Figure out what hand you're representing and bet accordingly. And I recommend thinking a street or two ahead and having a plan that goes along w/pot size, stack size, what your opponent puts you on and the relative strength of your opponents hand.
eg. you want to represent a flush draw? call the flop and value bet the diamond.
or if I want to represent the queen, i call the flop and use position to either value bet/raise the turn.
With medium stacks, swelling up a pot when you don't have much pot equity or fold equity is bad poker.
Posted Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:50 pm GMT by ScanX
1988TR : of course u have to fold if u have JJ and half a brain and yeah most people dont call with underpair.
All I'm saying is that moving all-in on the turn on just a draw with no read on the opponent and especially at 6 max where the players are even more reckless is not a very good play.
And yeah 8 outs is an exit, thanx for the scoop.
snoogins : the first part of my sentence was irrelevant yeah.
However I still believe that he should take a stab at the pot that doesnt commit himself for all his chips, like $80.
Often those bets that are almost begging for a call show more strength than an oversized all-in bet.
Or he takes the free card.
Posted Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:23 pm GMT by 1988 TR
I hear you. Nothing wrong with a free card.
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