Posted Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:01 am GMT by howzit
1-2NL live.
Villain i played w/earlier and is weak. However, he is willing to overplay some marginal hands because he thinks they are good. Just bad. He just sat down in this game after waiting for a few minutes in hte lounge so I feel like he's looking to gambooool just a little, but nothing to get out of line.
Hero: same image as usual. aggressive but not stupid. I think most players generally respect my bets lately and I've been playing tight-aggressive when i only have 100-150BBs. He doesn't know this cuz he just sat down. The other night, i ran him over in some key pots so he probably sees me as loose aggressive.
Question here is, how can i play this hand w/my stack w/out going broke.
Villain: $400
Hero: $320
straddle, one limper, villain raises to $15, I call on the button w/AKo, limper calls, blinds and straddle fold.
Flop: ($50) K  10  8
Limper checks, villain bets $40 in a way that looks like he likes this board. It's on me. .. .I have the A what the f*ck do i do here? What's my plan of action on a bricked turn and he fires $100? What's my plan of action on a spade or broadway card?
In my head he's playing AA or AK. KK is a very low probability. KQ is also a low probability. In the heat of battle, i assigned these percentages:
AA: 18%
AK: 80%
KQ, KK: 2%
But today i think hand probabilities should be:
AA: 2 ways
AK: 6 ways
KK: 1 way
KQ: 8 ways
Once again, i don't see this getting to a cheap showdown but if villain has AK, i'm freerolling here. AA i'm in a bad spot.
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Posted Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:25 am GMT by Muck
Tough situation. It seems like one of those fold if you think you’re behind, else get aggressive and come over the top now. There isn’t much that can come on the turn to give you immediate help short of a K.
If you want to hang on till the nut flush you’ll probably be all-in by then anyway.
With the card information available the chance he’s on a four flush already seems unlikely so your only real fear seem to be AA. Would he make that kind of raise with TT?
TBH I’d come over the top. But that’s easy to say when it’s not your money on the table 
Posted Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:40 am GMT by howzit
I don't see an amount that I can raise that wouldn't tie me to the pot. I also can't see myself just calling down all the way w/top pair.
I've given him zero information on the strength of my hand and since I call w/a lot of hands when I'm on the button (usually deeper stacked) he knows I can be weak here. Yes, he could have TT or KK here but a pot-sized bet w/two weak preflop callers seems more likely that he has a one-pair hand, IMO.
however, once i call taht flop, i've given him a lot more info to play optimally against me. Once again, my stack size makes things very complicated. 80BB or less, easy decision, 200BB or more, call and play poker. 150 BBs. . .. ugh.
So what are the benefits between calling and raising?
Posted Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:48 am GMT by NickFlynn
I'll probably cement my reputation as a complete pussy here, but I think from the way you described the situation, you should fold the hand right now.
With the exception of KQ, there aren't a lot of hands here you are beating that you can put him on. (I'm also wondering about TT.) You could come over the top, but that is going to tie you to the pot, as you said. Calling just sucks, because you are likely going to get hammered on the turn.
The key part about it for me is that you've only got $15 in the pot at this point and the situation seems potentially dangerous. I want to fold and find a better spot.
- Nick
Posted Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:54 am GMT by howzit
Folding is the last of my options but also went through my head.
I tend to like folding here when I feel like I'm usually tied or waaay behind. but can I fold w/the high probability of him having AK as well and I"M FREEROLLING!
I didn't mention this earlier but what is the probability of him bluffing or taking a stab w/QQ? Is it enough to warrant a call?
Posted Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:56 am GMT by howzit
| NickFlynn wrote: | The key part about it for me is that you've only got $15 in the pot at this point.
- Nick |
Nick, how many times do i need to say this. . . .this is not the foundation for making my decision.
Posted Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:04 am GMT by Loonbat
You cannot fold at this moment (this is obvious), however I need more information. Could villian be holding 8s through Qs? I need a better read and am curious if the list of potential hands you've put him on could be expanded.
He is NOT calling you for Ks or As (no preflop reraise) but if he perceives you as loose, may be putting you on a much smaller hand.
I like your hand, and wonder if villian really likes the board (he's betting 80% of pot). Could he be trying to chase the flush draw out or is it an information bet?
Suggestion - reraise to 100 (I don't feel this pot commits you at this point). If he comes over the top, fold. If he calls, this hand is foldable on the turn unless you spike an A, K or spade.
Posted Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:06 am GMT by Muck
Okay the original question was can you avoid going all-in. I don’t think you can.
With this much aggression and the size of the pot the odds are you’ll be put to a decision for all of your chips before the showdown. So I see it as you can either fold now or move now.
| howzit wrote: |
what are the benefits of raising vs calling?
I don't see an amount that I can raise that wouldn't tie me to the pot. I also can't see myself just calling down all the way w/top pair. |
It’s not that raising has great benefits, although it does give you the chance to take the pot down here, it’s more that I don’t see any benefits to calling.
The chances are that he has more of a drawing had than you, in which case letting him see that next card for free can't be good.
So the turn probably isn’t going to help you and now there’s even more in the pot and he’s even more unlikely to fold.
Posted Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:13 am GMT by Skribbles
I think a re-raise would be in order. He could very well have been making a continuation bet. Hands like AQ and QQ are definitly possible and he is making his stab at the pot. Going over the top to say $120 will tell you everything you need to know. If he calls, he will most likely check to you on the turn, so if it bricks you can get a free river or you can fire out and take down the pot.
If he re-raises, you know its time to get out.
Posted Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:35 am GMT by BeerWench13
| Quote: | I think a re-raise would be in order. He could very well have been making a continuation bet. Hands like AQ and QQ are definitly possible and he is making his stab at the pot. Going over the top to say $120 will tell you everything you need to know. If he calls, he will most likely check to you on the turn, so if it bricks you can get a free river or you can fire out and take down the pot.
If he re-raises, you know its time to get out. |
This is exactly what I was going to say. Raise or fold. Personally, I'd raise for more information on the strength of his hand.
Posted Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:41 am GMT by howzit
| Skribbles wrote: | I think a re-raise would be in order. He could very well have been making a continuation bet. Hands like AQ and QQ are definitly possible and he is making his stab at the pot. Going over the top to say $120 will tell you everything you need to know. If he calls, he will most likely check to you on the turn, so if it bricks you can get a free river or you can fire out and take down the pot.
If he re-raises, you know its time to get out. |
no f*cking way am i folding if he comes over the top. I'll have $190 left.
50 + 120x2 + 190 = 480
480:190 = 2.5:1 with this hand. I don't think i can fold here, once i raise, i'm committed.
Posted Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:57 am GMT by Skribbles
| howzit wrote: |
no f*cking way am i folding if he comes over the top. I'll have $190 left.
50 + 120x2 + 190 = 480
480:190 = 2.5:1 with this hand. I don't think i can fold here, once i raise, i'm committed. |
So then it is basically fold or push?
Posted Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:04 am GMT by Loonbat
| howzit wrote: | | Skribbles wrote: | I think a re-raise would be in order. He could very well have been making a continuation bet. Hands like AQ and QQ are definitly possible and he is making his stab at the pot. Going over the top to say $120 will tell you everything you need to know. If he calls, he will most likely check to you on the turn, so if it bricks you can get a free river or you can fire out and take down the pot.
If he re-raises, you know its time to get out. |
no f*cking way am i folding if he comes over the top. I'll have $190 left.
50 + 120x2 + 190 = 480
480:190 = 2.5:1 with this hand. I don't think i can fold here, once i raise, i'm committed. |
Pffttzz - "pot committed", "Santa Claus", and "Easter Bunny" all fall in the same category ... wonderful notions/myths, but fictional. Each segment/betting round of a hand is a separate decision and a time to reevaluate. But people still believe in the concept, and so be it. It's a great way for good chips (those in front of you) to chase bad chips (those in the pot you're going to lose). I only use the term "pot committed" because people are convinced this notion exists in a logical universe.
Back to basics - pot odds = good concept ... pot committed = Tooth Fairy
Posted Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:13 am GMT by NickFlynn
| howzit wrote: | | NickFlynn wrote: | The key part about it for me is that you've only got $15 in the pot at this point.
- Nick |
Nick, how many times do i need to say this. . . .this is not the foundation for making my decision. |
Surely you didn't post this so you could have us all guess at what YOUR thinking process is. I'm assuming that you posted this to hear what the rest of us thought about it.
And frankly, I don't see why it shouldn't be part of your considerations. One of the reasons raising here seems dangerous is that you are going to be tied to the pot after a raise. The flip side of that is that you aren't at all committed to the pot at this point in the hand, and I think that is a valid consideration. If you want to disagree with that, fine, but that's part of how I'm looking at the hand.
The key part about this hand for me is that you said the guy looked really happy with the board. That sets off some alarm bells in my head - happy, leading with a pot sized bet out of position with flush and straight draws on the board. Sounds like AA, KK, AK, TT. 88, KQ or (longshot here) QJ . He could also be taking a stab with QQ or JJ, but I'm relying on your read here, so those are less likely.
The hands you are behind, you are way crushed. The one hand you are ahead of is KQ. If your best realistic hope is to split the dead money with another AK, this is the definition of a bad situation. I'm laying it down.
- Nick
Posted Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:15 am GMT by howzit
WOW, i'm very undecided on this and i'm going through each reply thoroughly.
Keep them coming.
Posted Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:35 am GMT by NickFlynn
| Loonbat wrote: | | You cannot fold at this moment (this is obvious) |
Is it really?
I'm not trying to be a dick here, but this type of situation is exactly what makes no-limit such a tough game. If you don't fold here, 9 times out of 10, all the money is going into the pot.
This hand, because of the stacks, is really close to a tournament situation. There isn't really any room to manuever - the decision point is right now. You can't risk half your stack raising for "information" and calling, as usual, isn't a very good option either.
- Nick
Posted Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:38 am GMT by 1988 TR
I would have a tough time folding here.
If I put my opponnent on AA or KK every hand, I probably would have given up poker long ago.
He came out betting a very solid $40. If he has an absolute monsters, it seems a little bit like an over bet. So I can't really suspect KK here. Maybe AA.... Which if that was the case, I might be in a lot of trouble here.
The other day I actually folded AA on the turn and KK on the river. So hands are possible to let go. For what it is worth, I played the AA badly with only a min raise from the button & got called from the SB & BB. Flop came 2 hearts & on the turn a thrid heart came & the guy bet $350. Without even having the A of hearts, I had to resign myself to a badly played AA and fold. The KK I can't quite remember how I played it, but again I don't think I was not aggressive enough & I was up against a Pro (Paul Wolfe). He bet 400 on the river with an awful board for me - Something like 3 diamonds, two jacks, and a lot of straight outs.
I don't think you have the scary boards I mentioned above & if you are beat here, it is just one of those things. If you fold here consistently, I don't feel like you are playing youe best poker. KJ is a pretty common bet with that board (which you have crushed). QQ or JJ are also possibilites - The guy is asking if you have the king in that case. I think you need to say YES.
QJ and flush draws are also possibilitles.
I think the most likely hand I'm scared of here, giving the $40 flop bet is AA. I would take my chances.
Posted Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:54 am GMT by ScanX
doesnt answer your question but had u reraised preflop it would have been much easier for u.
as many said, u have to raise or fold on flop...and I prefer folding cause I'm quite conservative of my chips and experience taught me : DO NOT OVERPLAY TPTK AND OVERPAIR :)
1988TR : "He came out betting a very solid $40. If he has an absolute monsters, it seems a little bit like an over bet. So I can't really suspect KK here."
with a straight and flush draw on board and $45ish in a 3-way pot, I dont think that $40 is overbetting his set.
Posted Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:57 am GMT by NickFlynn
| ScanX wrote: | doesnt answer your question but had u reraised preflop it would have been much easier for u.
as many said, u have to raise or fold on flop...and I prefer folding cause I'm quite conservative of my chips and experience taught me : DO NOT OVERPLAY TPTK AND OVERPAIR |
I don't feel so bad now. *grin*
I also agree with the reraise pre-flop comment - I meant to add this to the bottom of my other post. Reraising with AK in position is pretty good way to find where you stand, especially if the original raiser isn't a particularly tricky player.
Have a good weekend,
- Nick
Posted Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:05 pm GMT by Loonbat
| NickFlynn wrote: |
There isn't really any room to manuever - the decision point is right now. You can't risk half your stack raising for "information" and calling, as usual, isn't a very good option either.
- Nick |
All comments are welcome (I don't think you're a "dick) because even though I responded, I too read everything and learn as a result. However, I'll stick to my original raise notion. The $40 flop bet is curious. I don't put him on aces, and Ks are doubtful. The reraise to $100 hurts the stack if you laydown to a reraise but hey - this is poker. And information is needed in this spot, especially if you're doubting a TPTK situation.
Posted Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:28 pm GMT by gol4pro
You're in a bind here that's for sure.
I know a lot of guys hate the play, but sometimes you can get a lot of information out of it.
Did a min. raise ever cross your mind? I'm not saying it's the best option for sure, but it's definitely a viable one. It will probably get you the information you need without committing your entire stack.
Posted Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:37 pm GMT by Soup_dog
Well... I know you all will hate this, but I would probably just smooth call this and see the turn. Yes, I know you all hate this because it won't give you any more information... but to be honest, it will. You will see the turn and see what kind of bet he leads out with and it won't cost you as much as a reraise. (Which could end up putting you all-in.) Based on the turn you can either proceed or fold.
I would rather have thrown a decent raise out preflop and taken control of the betting. Another thing I am learning is that sometimes it's ok to fold if your just "uncomfortable" with the situation. More times than not, if I'm not happy with how the hand is going, but stay in, I will get burned. I would rather lay down a potential winner for cheap then get slammed for my "buy-in".
Posted Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:47 pm GMT by Skribbles
| Soup_dog wrote: | Well... I know you all will hate this, but I would probably just smooth call this and see the turn. Yes, I know you all hate this because it won't give you any more information... but to be honest, it will. You will see the turn and see what kind of bet he leads out with and it won't cost you as much as a reraise. (Which could end up putting you all-in.) Based on the turn you can either proceed or fold.
|
The smooth call here has its advantages since you have position. For 1, it doesn't commit so much that you can't get away from the hand. 2, if the river is a blank and he shows weakness with a small bet or a check then pushing in would very decent move. 3, if another spade drops, you can represent the flush and scare him off (unless he is drawing to it).
Posted Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:50 pm GMT by howzit
I thought about everything golf. Calling, raising and how much, and folding.
Because I had the ace of spades, I felt like i had about a few % points in equity (obviously not much) but it helped in the decision. But once again, the probably w/ min-raising is when he comes over the top for another $120-$150. Fold I guess...
So, the results is this: on the fly, I made it $110 to go and to basically decide right then and there that i am head or tieing just enough times to back my stack. WRONG!!! Worst case scenario happened, he pushed immediately.
So that left me w/about $200 in the back in a pot that was $455ish. f*ck!!!
I called relucantly and he had the goods. AA.
As I shipped my stack over and got up, I said to nobody in particular "I should've raised preflop."
Recently i wrote that my biggest leak/money loser is TPTK hands particularly AK. I really like to control the betting when i have these hands and when somebody else takes control it's usually bad news for me. The last 3 times i've been busted out was w/AK w/some kind of flush draw to go with it. Seriously. I tell my friends and beginners to never go bust w/one pair hands unless you're sure somebody else only has one pair.
I suck at TPTK.
Preflop i eff'ed it up. I should've reraised and hopefully have him come over the top preflop to make my decisions on a cheaper street.
Given the hand the way it played out, i think the concensus is to raise or fold.
Posted Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:52 pm GMT by howzit
| 1988 TR wrote: |
I think the most likely hand I'm scared of here, giving the $40 flop bet is AA. I would take my chances. |
all right. we agree then. One last question. . .. are you a winning player?
:D
Posted Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:58 pm GMT by howzit
BTW, thanks for all the replies.
Posted Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:33 pm GMT by howzit
one more thing to confuse me:
I got off the phone w/a NL friend and he made a case for calling:
(1) it'll freeze QQ, KQ to get a cheap showdown.
(2) spade on teh turn, it'll slow down villain.
(3) broadway cards, it'll slow down villain.
(4) brick turns, and villain fires another pot-sized barrel, he said it's a toss up between folding and raising all-in.
He said he couldn't fold on that flop w/out another street for info.
Posted Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:46 pm GMT by 1988 TR
| howzit wrote: |
all right. we agree then. One last question. . .. are you a winning player?
:D |
I win VERY consistently.
Scan X is talking about TPTK.
Big difference between AK when a K flops and A7 when the flop is 742. All the pocket pairs like 88 99 10 10 JJ still have the A7 beat where with the AK, the only pocket pair of AA has it beat.
Not fair to lump in TPTK like A7 with AK.
Saying a generic statement like "Don't overplay top pair top kicker" is just not specific enough for my tastes. Too big a difference in my mind between a flop like 422 with A4 and the flop we are discussing here with AK.
Scan X, no offense, but you pick up a hand like AK, flop the K and fold to a bet? Where exactly are you keeping your balls? Take them out from under lock & key & start playing some poker.
(OK, Maybe a little offense intended). 
Posted Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:51 pm GMT by supafrey
Not that I want to side with anyone, (especially not a dirty belgian), but Scan's timid play is the reason he's doing remarkably well online. Just because conservative isn't YOUR style 1988, doesn't mean it isn't effective.
Scan's just giving a different side to the argument...
Posted Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:54 pm GMT by 1988 TR
| supafrey wrote: | Not that I want to side with anyone, (especially not a dirty belgian), but Scan's timid play is the reason he's doing remarkably well online. Just because conservative isn't YOUR style 1988, doesn't mean it isn't effective.
Scan's just giving a different side to the argument... |
Part of my point is I flat out don't believe him. He wants to call to see a flop with AK and has a great flop & then wants to fold? Makes no sense. I don't even believe him when he says he would lay it down. That is way too timid of a play - By anyone's standard.
Posted Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:59 pm GMT by supafrey
I've watched scan play for hours, and can assure you he's not lying about his own timidness.
Scan's style revolves more around trapping people like yourself.. the ones who think their top pair is good, and sneaking in the surprise flush/set/straight/two pair.
It's not that the AK is/is-not winning... I like to think of it more that there are often better places to put in your money. Why risk a strange play when an easier one would take it? Just my thoughts.
Posted Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:08 pm GMT by gumbie
I lose my whole stack every time my AK runs into AA and the flop brings an A or K.
I remember a particularly painful loss when the flop came AKK
Scan is probably on the right track as I'm sure I have a net loss with AK as a consequence of these hands
Posted Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:08 pm GMT by howzit
Scan and 1988 are two posters i listen to w/a receptive ear.
What works for them and this board are their polar styles that find them w/ different approaches on identical hands, and both have found success.
But seriously, i hate a fold here.
Posted Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:08 pm GMT by Soup_dog
| supafrey wrote: |
It's not that the AK is/is-not winning... I like to think of it more that there are often better places to put in your money. Why risk a strange play when an easier one would take it? Just my thoughts. |
I agree. My strategy has started to elvove more this way as well. Sure I fold some winners, but now I tend to suck others into much bigger loses.
Posted Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:12 pm GMT by 1988 TR
If you are going to fold to a bet, why even call to see the flop??????
Are you hoping to flop AKK? If so why not play everyhand and fold unless you flop a set, flush, or straight?
My point is, you called preflop and flopped a great hand. I play a ton of NL and players will follow up a pre flop raise with just about anything. To fold hear is just way too weak of a play.
Posted Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:30 pm GMT by howzit
| gumbie wrote: | I lose my whole stack every time my AK runs into AA and the flop brings an A or K.
I remember a particularly painful loss when the flop came AKK
Scan is probably on the right track as I'm sure I have a net loss with AK as a consequence of these hands |
what 1988 is talking about here is hte 80% of hte other times you have hands like AQ or KQ or Ax totally dominated. AK is not a net loser for me but i do have painful
Posted Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:20 pm GMT by 1988 TR
| howzit wrote: | | gumbie wrote: | I lose my whole stack every time my AK runs into AA and the flop brings an A or K.
I remember a particularly painful loss when the flop came AKK
Scan is probably on the right track as I'm sure I have a net loss with AK as a consequence of these hands |
what 1988 is talking about here is hte 80% of hte other times you have hands like AQ or KQ or Ax totally dominated. AK is not a net loser for me but i do have painful |
Yes my point is, you got the flop you are looking for & now are folding. Why even play then?
Also, I'm saying about 80% of the time a pre flop raise is going to be followed up with a flop bet. How you can take that to mean you are beat, I'm not sure.
Posted Fri Jul 22, 2005 6:33 pm GMT by snoogins47
| Quote: | | "And frankly, I don't see why it shouldn't be part of your considerations. One of the reasons raising here seems dangerous is that you are going to be tied to the pot after a raise. The flip side of that is that you aren't at all committed to the pot at this point in the hand, and I think that is a valid consideration. If you want to disagree with that, fine, but that's part of how I'm looking at the hand. " |
This part is arguing semantic nonsense. The idea is that what ties you to the pot is the pot size, your stack size, and the bet: not how much money you have put into the pot previous. That's why he was arguing, but I'm pretty sure you both have some sort of understanding of this.
| Quote: |
So then it is basically fold or push? |
No. The decision that if need be, all your chips are going in, doesn't necessarily make your best raise size all-in.
| Quote: | | Not that I want to side with anyone, (especially not a dirty belgian), but Scan's timid play is the reason he's doing remarkably well online. Just because conservative isn't YOUR style 1988, doesn't mean it isn't effective. |
Style is thrown out the window when you're trying to determine the best way to play a hand. Folding because "I'm conservative" begs the question like none other. It's pure nonsense. "I fold here because I normally fold a lot."
To beat a horse that shouldn't have ever been alive: Scan might do better playing a "conservative" style, and 1988 might do better playing more loose and aggressive. This could be for many reasons: Scan might be less comfortable with gambling for large amounts of money. Scan might be much better at somehow manipulating players into committing a lot of money when they're behind. 1988 might be more naturally skilled in picking up pots, and putting a lot of pressure on opponents. All of this is important to what style is most effective for them. I will grant all of this, because it's true.
However, regardless of whatever "style" you may play, the goal of a strategy discussion is not to say "I would do X because that's how I play." That accomplishes less than nothing, for yourself, and does nothing to further the discussion. Our goal, as members of this discussion, should be trying to figure out the BEST way to play the hand, and the reason a play is best is that it's the one that carries the highest average reward. Plain and simple. Style only has bearing here in the sense that it's important to note how your opponents think of you.
| Quote: | | If you are going to fold to a bet, why even call to see the flop?????? |
Blunt, but he's got a good point. If you're so frightened of this guy that you will fold to a standard continuation bet when you flop TPTK, with AK, on a board that doesn't allow for any made straights or flushes... well, ditch the damned thing preflop.
Anyway, what good does re-raising preflop really do? I'm not saying it's bad, as you get value out of it, but what about when he flat calls, and stacks the shit out of you on this flop? I think re-raising is often good because you take the initiative preflop, etc. etc... but what information do you get, other than when he folds, you probably had a much better hand than he did and made very little money out of it? It's great when he pops it for another raise as a predictable donkey, because then you can fold with a clear conscience (The reverse implied odds make me want to gouge my eyes out with a salad fork.)
I'm not bashing the idea of re-raising AK. I just don't think that it's the magical-mystery line that solves all your poker problems, like a lot of people seem to.
As for the hand in question, the player I'm against is ludicrously important.
I like a call on the flop. Your hand is strong, and surely a favorite against any two raised cards preflop that make a continuation bet (though of course, he's checking some of the time.) Your holding the As makes it a lot less likely that a card will come off to really hurt you. What your opponent does on the turn, if you have some sort of an idea what kind of player he is, will give you a better idea where you stand, and what to do. A lot of player won't feel too comfortable firing another barrel with a pocket pair less than Ks on the turn. Against players who will continually fire, whom you decide you want to take to the felt, calling and letting him bet the turn commits him a lot more.
If you raise the flop, it's a lot harder for him to make a mistake.
Posted Fri Jul 22, 2005 7:11 pm GMT by 1988 TR
A lot of good points there.
I agree wtih the re-raising pre flop with AK. If someone makes a decent sized bet (A player I respect) I will just call. If you re-raise, you should be prepared to put all your chips in because a lot of times they will come right back over the top. I don't mind just calling here and seeing a flop & not re-raising. If it is a player who I KNOW overvalues any ace or a hand like KQ, then I would re-raise & would not be afraid to call all in with the thought that I am either way ahead, or 50/50. Sometimes I will be stomped vs AA (Unlikely) and sometimes behind against KK (Again Unlikely).
I would most likely re-raise the flop. I just feel I'm most likely ahead.
One of the bigger differences I feel like I am seeing is that a lot of people are afraid to lose. So I raise, get reraised, and end up all in. If I lose, I reload and get back on the horse.
I put my chips in when I think I have the best hand. I would think I have the best hand here.
I think it's a profitable play over the long run & that is all I really care about - Not if I lose any one hand.
Posted Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:33 pm GMT by ScanX
"Part of my point is I flat out don't believe him. He wants to call to see a flop with AK and has a great flop & then wants to fold? "
sorry but I never said that if u're quoting me
I said : reraise preflop or (raise on flop or fold it)
parenthesis are important on previous sentence.
let's say u reraise preflop, it doesnt mean that AA will always reraise u, we know it.
the flop comes Kxx.
it's checked to u, u bet quite strong and get check-raised.
to me it means : AA, KK, another set or maybe AK.
I really dont believe KQ or QQ reraises here.
that means that normally 1 hand gives u a split pot.
u have controlled the size of the flop bet by raising preflop, thus allowing u to bet a decent but not "commiting-yourself" amount on flop.
do u still want to call or move all-in on the check-raise when the opponent doesnt seem to be scared by the K ? I dont think so, unless u have a good read on opponent as a "maniac"
if he calls u can still check behind on turn and see a not too expensive showdown if he decides to bet on river and the board isnt too scary, or take another stab on turn and check behind on river if u havent improved.
All in all, I think the preflop reraise is crucial (although I dont systematically make it)...helps u to take control of hand and pot size
Posted Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:49 pm GMT by 1988 TR
| ScanX wrote: | "Part of my point is I flat out don't believe him. He wants to call to see a flop with AK and has a great flop & then wants to fold? "
sorry but I never said that if u're quoting me
I said : reraise preflop or (raise on flop or fold it)
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You actually did. You said you prefer folding!
| ScanX wrote: |
as many said, u have to raise or fold on flop...and I prefer folding cause I'm quite conservative of my chips and experience taught me : DO NOT OVERPLAY TPTK AND OVERPAIR
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Posted Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:38 pm GMT by ScanX
| 1988 TR wrote: | | ScanX wrote: | "Part of my point is I flat out don't believe him. He wants to call to see a flop with AK and has a great flop & then wants to fold? "
sorry but I never said that if u're quoting me
I said : reraise preflop or (raise on flop or fold it)
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You actually did. You said you prefer folding!
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I said I prefer folding if I just called.
I never said calling preflop was my choice.
Posted Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:15 pm GMT by zeroswarm
Well I don't understand this atall. Out of curiousity what flop would u like to see if your playing AK?
Seems to me this flop is pretty good, in fact a whole lot better than a lot of flops I see when I'm playing AK. So whats the problem? If your not going to like a flop like this with your AK then I suggest you simply fold AK pre flop cause u aint gonna like much.
Anyway, I don't mean to be critical, but there is no way I fold here. Not now, not ever.
Posted Sun Jul 24, 2005 4:22 pm GMT by Loonbat
QJT rainbow sounds good
Posted Sun Jul 24, 2005 5:59 pm GMT by NickFlynn
"If you can't lay down a winning hand, you aren't going to be a winning no-limit hold'em player" - TJ Cloutier
Is the flop a good one for AK? Sure it is.
Is the $40 bet a sure sign you are behind in the hand? Not at all, could be a continuation bet or whatever.
Is laying AK down in this situation the right play in all circumstances? No friggin' way.
All that being said, no limit is a game of recognizing situations and making the right read. Howzit recognized that if he reraises the flop, all his money is probably going in the pot. He also clearly didn't think he was ahead - it sounds like his intuition was giving him a bad feeling about the hand. That's the key part of it for me. Sure, it's a tough laydown, and you might be laying down the best hand, but it beats the hell out of shoving your chips into a pot when you don't think you are the favorite.
- Nick
Posted Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:42 pm GMT by 1988 TR
| NickFlynn wrote: | "If you can't lay down a winning hand, you aren't going to be winning no-limit hold'em player" - TJ Cloutier
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"If you lay down winning hands because of a feeling, you aren't going to be a winning no-limit hold'em player." - 1988 TR
It's one thing to lay it down in a tourney, when you are on the bubble or something, but in a cash game like this, I feel like it is a hand you should play.
Posted Mon Jul 25, 2005 1:38 pm GMT by NickFlynn
| 1988 TR wrote: | | NickFlynn wrote: | "If you can't lay down a winning hand, you aren't going to be winning no-limit hold'em player" - TJ Cloutier
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"If you lay down winning hands because of a feeling, you aren't going to be a winning no-limit hold'em player." - 1988 TR
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With all due respect, I think I'll side with TJ on this one.
Ok, now that I've got the smart-ass response over with, I really think that reading players and situations is the most important skill in no-limit. If you want to dismiss that aspect of the game as "feelings" that's your perogative. If the game was as simple as you seem to want to make it, I don't think we'd spend so much time thinking about it and discussing it.
- Nick
Posted Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:13 pm GMT by 1988 TR
| NickFlynn wrote: |
With all due respect, I think I'll side with TJ on this one.
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2 funny.
You can use a quote to THINK you are right for any given situation. It takes balls to play NL poker. Making big law downs because of gut feelings is kind of silly. I like to base my play more on statistics - IE, over the long run, is this a profitable play.
By the way, that "feeling" you have is another word for "scared money."
Posted Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:09 pm GMT by NickFlynn
| 1988 TR wrote: |
You can use a quote to THINK you are right for any given situation. It takes balls to play NL poker. Making big law downs because of gut feelings is kind of silly. I like to base my play more on statistics - IE, over the long run, is this a profitable play.
By the way, that "feeling" you have is another word for "scared money." |
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. You used the word "feeling" not me - call it intuition, getting a read, spider-sense, whatever - if you play no-limit without trusting your gut occasionally, you aren't as good as you think you are. Personally, I think you are probably a way better player than I am, and I bet you make moves on gut instinct sometimes. You surely cant survive at the stakes you play at playing just by playing A-B-C poker.
- Nick
Posted Mon Jul 25, 2005 7:21 pm GMT by 1988 TR
| NickFlynn wrote: | | 1988 TR wrote: |
You can use a quote to THINK you are right for any given situation. It takes balls to play NL poker. Making big law downs because of gut feelings is kind of silly. I like to base my play more on statistics - IE, over the long run, is this a profitable play.
By the way, that "feeling" you have is another word for "scared money." |
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. You used the word "feeling" not me - call it intuition, getting a read, spider-sense, whatever - if you play no-limit without trusting your gut occasionally, you aren't as good as you think you are. Personally, I think you are probably a way better player than I am, and I bet you make moves on gut instinct sometimes. You surely cant survive at the stakes you play at playing just by playing A-B-C poker.
- Nick |
Actually, I think we agree. I just don't explain myself very good. :D
I definitely make plays because I "Feel" like I am beat, or "Feel" like I am ahead. But I have good reasons behind them - Experience, the way a person is playing, etc.
I dunno, I guess what I am saying is that it is no so much of a random feel as it is reasoning.
Posted Mon Jul 25, 2005 9:09 pm GMT by NickFlynn
Ok, cool. We are on the same page.
- Nick
Posted Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:43 am GMT by arras
Jennifer Harmon plays almost completely by feel and reading her opponents. She admits she doesn't know most of the math.
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