Posted Sat Jul 23, 2005 11:02 am GMT by adam
Hello all. This is my first post =)
I'd not been playing at this table long but villain seems to have played alot of pots in the 20 or so hands i've seen, had not shown a hand though.
#Game No : 2410110200
***** Hand History for Game 2410110200 *****
$200 NL Texas Hold'em - Friday, July 08, 19:18:05 EDT 2005
Table Table 36609 (6 max) (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: bude1 ( $180.78 )
Seat 2: citizen_kang ( $200 )
Seat 3: fizz00 ( $208.48 )
Seat 4: Barney_R ( $224.05 )
Seat 5: nicros2 ( $307.20 )
Seat 6: d17jason ( $117.20 )
Barney_R posts small blind $1.
nicros2 posts big blind $2.
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Barney_R  
d17jason folds.
bude1 calls $2.
citizen_kang calls $2.
fizz00 folds.
Barney_R calls $1.
nicros2 checks.
** Dealing Flop **   
Barney_R checks.
nicros2 checks.
bude1 checks.
citizen_kang checks.
** Dealing Turn ** 
Barney_R bets $4.
nicros2 folds.
bude1 raises $10.
citizen_kang folds.
Barney_R raises $16.
bude1 raises $20.
Barney_R raises $30.
bude1 is all-In $148.78
Barney_R: dont have J9
Barney_R calls $128.78.
** Dealing River ** 
Barney_R shows a straight, six to ten.
bude1 shows   a flush, ace high.
bude1 wins $363.56 from the main pot with a flush, ace high.
I obviously made the right call but i think should I have bet it stronger once i had action? (though his all in was horrible)
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Posted Sat Jul 23, 2005 11:26 am GMT by ScanX
u should reraise more and when he rereraises u, u move all-in.
if u always reraise of a minimum amount like that, u're showing too much strength and u're giving him correct pot odds to call if he's on the flush draw.
Posted Sat Jul 23, 2005 11:36 am GMT by adam
Mika 
99 times out of 100 i would be raising that much stronger, i am not entirly sure why i did not on this occasion. I think i read him as being fairly weak (slow played ace maybe, didnt think flush draw as he re-raised twice??) and wanted to milk him for as much as i could without blowing him out of the pot.
The way i played it did induce him to put all his chips into the pot as a 5-1 dog, which i guess could be seen as a good play 
Posted Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:12 pm GMT by Tadzio
Your bets on the turn are semi-weak, but I don't think they're awful-- he had to have known you had a straight by the time you re-raised him a second time. He rashly went all-in with 16/44 outs (36% chance to catch something that'd beat or tie you) and nothing else. You make a bucket full of cash on this play 2/3rds of the time, and that makes your call all-in correct, imo.
In fact, although I prefer to be the one putting pressure on other people (as opposed to being forced into tough decisions), I'd go so far as to say that I like your play with this hand. The guy sucked out on you. Bad beat.
Posted Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:38 pm GMT by ScanX
| adam wrote: | Mika :P
99 times out of 100 i would be raising that much stronger, i am not entirly sure why i did not on this occasion. I think i read him as being fairly weak (slow played ace maybe, didnt think flush draw as he re-raised twice??) and wanted to milk him for as much as i could without blowing him out of the pot.
The way i played it did induce him to put all his chips into the pot as a 5-1 dog, which i guess could be seen as a good play ;) |
believe me this isnt a very good play.
I dunno how u can read that as weak hand and not like a set.
The way he raises would lead me to think he has some sort of hand and u want to make him pay quite strongly to see the river card.
Being greedy and milking can crush u.
"The way i played it did induce him to put all his chips into the pot as a 5-1 dog, which i guess could be seen as a good play "
90% of the time someone with a flush draw will never play like that, like moving all-in in a raise war when someone is clearly showing he has a hand that wants to be called. Hadnt he moved all-in u were giving him all the pot-odds he needed to call and see the river.
It's not because it worked that it's the right play.
Posted Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:52 pm GMT by adam
I agree that i played it badly mika (i was being sarcastic when i said that)  .
Posted Sat Jul 23, 2005 1:11 pm GMT by adam
I dont read him as a set due to his limping (from what i've seen, i would expect him to raise a decent pair like 88 or TT preflop).
His play was weird, which is probably why i played it badly
Posted Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:10 am GMT by ScanX
many players (me for example) dont raise w/ 88 or TT preflop UTG+1
Posted Sun Jul 24, 2005 9:33 am GMT by supafrey
Scan, while your point is definitely valid, if this guy was willing to call any raise (and was re-raising in fact) just for his flush draw on the turn, then there was pretty much nothing Adam could have done. =/
In the end, although it wasn't played that well, he got all his money in at the right time with the best hand.
Posted Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:26 am GMT by 1988 TR
| supafrey wrote: | Scan, while your point is definitely valid, if this guy was willing to call any raise (and was re-raising in fact) just for his flush draw on the turn, then there was pretty much nothing Adam could have done. =/
In the end, although it wasn't played that well, he got all his money in at the right time with the best hand. |
Ummm - You call with 3 6 on a flop of A 8 2. How exactly are you qualified to give advice on anything?
Unless the thread is titled "Bluff Calling" or " How to Be a Calling Station" you shouldn't post. 
Posted Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:44 am GMT by supafrey
so because you can't find anything wrong with what I'm posting, you resort to a personal attack instead?
Interesting.
Posted Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:48 am GMT by 1988 TR
| supafrey wrote: | so because you can't find anything wrong with what I'm posting, you resort to a personal attack instead?
Interesting. |
I've found a lot wrong with the garbage you are posting & that is why I am attacking.
If you can find some poker logic better than "I am psychic" to back up your plays, I would suggest it.
Posted Sun Jul 24, 2005 11:51 am GMT by supafrey
So my advice to adam is wrong, in some way?
Posted Sun Jul 24, 2005 12:16 pm GMT by ScanX
| supafrey wrote: | Scan, while your point is definitely valid, if this guy was willing to call any raise (and was re-raising in fact) just for his flush draw on the turn, then there was pretty much nothing Adam could have done. =/
In the end, although it wasn't played that well, he got all his money in at the right time with the best hand. |
how can u tell if he was willing to call anything ?
moving all-in and calling all-in are totally different.
adam should have been the aggressor, so yes there is somethin adam could have done.
Posted Sun Jul 24, 2005 12:26 pm GMT by supafrey
we talked about this over irc, scan.
I realize that he played it poorly, hence me agreeing with you.
I was merely extrapolating that I honestly feel this player would have called the all-in regardless, and the results would have been the same.
But yes, ofcourse the min-raising was silly. Why would i reiterate that though, if you expressed it so clearly?
Posted Sun Jul 24, 2005 12:37 pm GMT by suitedaces84
The hand was well played, with the exception of the cat and mouse game on the turn. Don't screw around. He's probably got something he can't let go of so make him pay. Don't be afaird of the one hand that beats you or one of the hands that can outdraw you. You'll lose way more being scared than you will being beat, because the vast majority of the time he will not have the one hand that beats you. So, yeah, you should have been more aggressive on the turn. You have the second nuts now, and it's very unlikely you're beat.
There are 19 cards you really don't want to see on the river (any club or a card that pairs the board). There's a 40% you're going to see one of these cards on the river. You're OOP and you'll likely be facing a very difficult river decision if you don't get the money in now. There's also a good chance you're up agaisnt a set. Although a club on the river will not affect the outcome of your match-up vs a set it will cost you big time if he's got a set. How would you like for this to happen? He flat calls your raise to $30, the river is 5  , you check, the river scared him too and he checks behind you. You show he shows you 8  8  . You curse yourself because you could have got his whole stack had you been more aggressive on the turn. Or how about this one: he flat calls your raise to $30, the river is 5 , you check, he bets $50 and you're faced with a very difficult decision.
Posted Sun Jul 24, 2005 1:02 pm GMT by suitedaces84
| supafrey wrote: | | I was merely extrapolating that I honestly feel this player would have called the all-in regardless |
Not if he had half a brain. An open ended straight and four flush is great, but he would be making mistake if he called this all-in on the turn.
| supafrey wrote: | | and the results would have been the same. |
I'm pretty sure he would have folded and the results would have been different, but that's not the point, in fact these results are actually worse. I'd much rather call an all-in semi-bluff with my oppoent drawing to 11.5 outs, then take the pot on the turn. Here's why: (31.5/43)*360 -150 > 60. Your EV of calling an all-in on the turn is over $50 greater than taking the pot on the turn by going all-in. So on the surface, it may seem that min raising then calling the all-in is optimum. Here's the problem with saying that: you don't know that your oppoent is going to semi-bluff all-in (if you had some sick read on him and knew he would fold to an all-in, but would semibluff a min raise it would be correct).
In hand analysis it is completely incorrect to factor the outcome into any decision. However that's all your hand analysis consists of. This is what makes it so terrible, and that's why everyone (me at least) is getting annoyed with you.
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