How do we feel about this one? |
|
Posted Tue Jul 26, 2005 6:08 pm GMT by TheSalche
I've been experimenting a little bit with some aggressive bluff style tactics in SnGs ... my theory is that the only time to make some profit off of these is early on the tourney since later you're likely to be called with a mediocre hand just because the blinds are too big.
How do you feel about this play?
Seat 1: bostonbob46 (700)
Seat 2: gringo82 (1030)
Seat 3: pcxonfire (668)
Seat 4: BombiesEhhif (935)
Seat 5: Veets1 (730)
Seat 6: pokerguy482 (1485)
Seat 7: TheSalche (750)
Seat 9: jager44444 (920)
Seat 10: SWEET_CORTNY (782)
TheSalche posts small blind (10)
jager44444 posts big blind (15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to TheSalche  
SWEET_CORTNY raises (55) to 55
bostonbob46 folds.
gringo82 folds.
pcxonfire calls (55)
BombiesEhhif folds.
Veets1 folds.
pokerguy482 folds.
TheSalche calls (45)
jager44444 folds.
** Dealing Flop ** :   
TheSalche checks.
SWEET_CORTNY checks.
pcxonfire bets (75)
TheSalche raises (250) to 250
SWEET_CORTNY folds.
pcxonfire calls (175)
** Dealing Turn ** : 
TheSalche bets (445)
TheSalche is all-In.
pcxonfire calls (363)
pcxonfire is all-In.
** Dealing River ** : 
Creating Main Pot with $1406 with pcxonfire
Creating Side Pot 1 with $82 with TheSalche
** Summary **
Main Pot: 1406 | Side Pot 1: 82
Board:
bostonbob46 balance 700, didn't bet (folded)
gringo82 balance 1030, didn't bet (folded)
pcxonfire balance 1406, bet 668, collected 1406, net +738   a pair of eights with jack kicker -- 8dJs(kicker card)
BombiesEhhif balance 935, didn't bet (folded)
Veets1 balance 730, didn't bet (folded)
pokerguy482 balance 1485, didn't bet (folded)
TheSalche balance 82, bet 750, collected 82, lost -668 a pair of eights --
jager44444 balance 905, lost 15 (folded)
SWEET_CORTNY balance 727, lost 55 (folded)
Did you know that participating in a poker forum can help you improve your own game? Be it by sharing experiences or simply asking for help, participation in a forum helps you focus and keep 'on topic' which will help you improve your game. You can learn from other players feedback and from their experiences. Why the THP poker forums? We offer one of the best managed texas holdem poker forums available, and the community within is far more friendly than those typicaly found on other sites. We've made a 'lurkers edition' of the poker forum available here on Holdem Poker Online, but we encourage all visitors to register and join in on the conversations on TexasHoldem-Poker.com
Posted Tue Jul 26, 2005 7:10 pm GMT by Skribbles
The bluffing method I find that works best is simply calling.
If you have position on someone and they have raised pre-flop, they will most likely bet the flop no matter what. If you just call that bet alot of times you'll get checked to on the turn. Anytime someone checks the turn to me after they've raised pre and post flop I'm bet at least the pot and normally take it down.
Don't know if that made sense...
Example
Player A UTG raises $5
Hero on the button calls
Flop 259 rainbow
Player A bets $8
Hero Calls
Turn T
Player A checks
Hero bets $15
Player A folds.
I do this every single time and I'd say it works about 85% of the time.
Posted Tue Jul 26, 2005 11:44 pm GMT by TheSalche
i get what you're saying skribbles ... but the question here is if i had of called the flop would he check the turn?
another line here would be for check-call turn and flop and bet a good amount on the river if i put him on a flush draw somehow
Posted Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:25 am GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| TheSalche wrote: | | my theory is that the only time to make some profit off of these is early on the tourney since later you're likely to be called with a mediocre hand just because the blinds are too big. |
The problem with the play is you're going to be called by mediocre hands early on as well. I don't like this move in the first or second level, and I don't like your position when you tried it. Wait until the 1 or 2 really poor players bust out on their draws and poor kickers before trying something like this.
But, fwiw, I agree with Skribbles. A flat call on the flop will scare the hell out of a weak bettor, and a check on the turn is a green light to steal. You have to make the bet large enough to be convincing, but not so large that it looks suspicious. 1/2 to 2/3 pot is usually a good number.
Posted Wed Jul 27, 2005 1:49 am GMT by TheSalche
tried it tonight early on and it definetly worked well ... hopefully this little tactic adds enough +EV so that i can start to make a consistent profit on these SnGs :D
Posted Wed Jul 27, 2005 2:49 am GMT by age_of_sages
I love trapping those guys that do that play. I'll raise it up preflop, and bet the flop whether I hit or miss. If I'm against someone who I feel is capable of trying that steal play, I'll check the turn so I can get extra money out of him 
Posted Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:25 am GMT by Silhouette
I've found the opposite to be true for bluffing though. For me, it works better in the middle stages of the SnG. I'll check fold almost anything through the first two levels if I'm not absolutely sure I'm ahead. This lets the maniacs sort themselves out, but it also gets alot of table respect. In levels 3-4 I start stealing to get a lead. I'll show a hand or two that I stole with like a pocket pair or AJs to get some respect with what I win too. I want players thinking that I'm tight for as long as possible.
I kind of ride my leads into the money then make moves.
I place in probably 3 out of 5 SnG's I play. Of course, these are Prima SnG's, which are basically turbos for the blind structure, but that is what works for me there.
Posted Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:24 am GMT by Skribbles
| age_of_sages wrote: | | I love trapping those guys that do that play. I'll raise it up preflop, and bet the flop whether I hit or miss. If I'm against someone who I feel is capable of trying that steal play, I'll check the turn so I can get extra money out of him |
Very true. It doesn't work everytime, but it is definitly +EV.
Posted Wed Jul 27, 2005 9:48 am GMT by suitedaces84
| Skribbles wrote: | The bluffing method I find that works best is simply calling.
If you have position on someone and they have raised pre-flop, they will most likely bet the flop no matter what. If you just call that bet alot of times you'll get checked to on the turn. Anytime someone checks the turn to me after they've raised pre and post flop I'm bet at least the pot and normally take it down.
Don't know if that made sense...
Example
Player A UTG raises $5
Hero on the button calls
Flop 259 rainbow
Player A bets $8
Hero Calls
Turn T
Player A checks
Hero bets $15
Player A folds.
I do this every single time and I'd say it works about 85% of the time. |
I agree. The other reason this is often more effective is because it keeps the pot smaller. By raising the flop you build the pot which will give your oppoent better numbers on future calls. This makes them more likely to call you down.
Posted Wed Jul 27, 2005 11:35 am GMT by TheSalche
| Silhouette wrote: | I've found the opposite to be true for bluffing though. For me, it works better in the middle stages of the SnG. I'll check fold almost anything through the first two levels if I'm not absolutely sure I'm ahead. This lets the maniacs sort themselves out, but it also gets alot of table respect. In levels 3-4 I start stealing to get a lead. I'll show a hand or two that I stole with like a pocket pair or AJs to get some respect with what I win too. I want players thinking that I'm tight for as long as possible.
I kind of ride my leads into the money then make moves.
I place in probably 3 out of 5 SnG's I play. Of course, these are Prima SnG's, which are basically turbos for the blind structure, but that is what works for me there. |
I've been trying almost the opposite ... I try to win one or two pots early on the SnG uncontested (might not see a turn, definetly won't see a river) and then if I'm not getting cards sit for an orbit or so and see how tight the table's playing ... if its the usual, at level 3 players tighten up a lot and I try to steal a few blinds from MP - button with some marginal hands (K10, etc.) and a lot of times i will be able to steal blinds about 1.5 times per round, which puts you in good chip position
the great thing here is that people think you may be stealing, so when you get a hand like JJ and raise, somebody is likely to push all in with Ax and you're a 2.5 to 1 favorite to win (of course you won't win every time here ... my 10s got busted by K10 last night which would've given me first easily ... grrr)
Posted Wed Jul 27, 2005 11:42 am GMT by 1988 TR
Not sure what to think of this. It seems like you are just bluffing with no thought behind it. It is like you are just trying to steal the pot without playing poker, putting the guy on a hand, etc. I would prefer at least having something (in this case, it wouldn't have taken much to win) or at least a semi-bluff (2 overcards, a gutshot, something)
The guy already called half your stack - It's pretty likely he will call the rest on the next card.
Bluffing is one of the harder things in poker... People really have a hard time letting go of their hands.
Usually what works better for me is the opposite - When I get a hand, I bet it - Instead of slow playing, bet into a flop when u hit trips. People never see it coming.
Posted Wed Jul 27, 2005 11:47 am GMT by TheSalche
| 1988 TR wrote: |
Bluffing is one of the harder things in poker... People really have a hard time letting go of their hands.
|
True, and thats why I'm trying to learn how to get em to toss their cards.
I was right in thinking he didn't have much of a hand ... but after reading the other posts i don't think raising here was the best spot to bluff at the pot.
Posted Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:16 pm GMT by screwthepooch
| TheSalche wrote: |
True, and thats why I'm trying to learn how to get em to toss their cards.
|
You're not going to get a player to toss their cards if they have hit something, even bottom pair in a lot of cases unless the opponent is a solid player. You're better off learning how to make them regret not tossing their cards.
I say this having lost a lot of bluffs in the last week. Here's one example where I made what I thought was a decent bluff and the guy calls with such a weak hand that in my opinion it was a terrible call, but unfortunately I didn't have any back-ups.
We were at a 2/4 $400 N/L table and this guy and I end up heads-up, pot is maybe $20 after the flop. I have suited connectors, that don't hit at all. 2 clubs hit on the flop, he checks..i check. 3rd club hits turn...check check. 4th club hits on river. He bets a very weak 4. I raise it to $90. He calls pretty quickly with his 2 of clubs making him the flush and me sitting there wondering how he could call my raise??? Lesson learned...some people just can't seem to let go of cards...and some believe you are bluffing when you bet big like that. IMO, if I'm sitting in his spot, I'm thinking it's just as likely that I have the Ace of spades isn't it? I'd fold his hand faster than France would surrender to an invading army.
Anyway, good luck!
ScrewThePooch
Posted Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:33 pm GMT by 1988 TR
*deleted
Posted Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:34 pm GMT by 1988 TR
| screwthepooch wrote: |
You're better off learning how to make them regret not tossing their cards.
|
Exactly!
Bluffing is just one aspect of the game, but the most profit I get out of hands is when I catch a big hand & get paid for it.
It also helps that I will throw away $40-$70 hear & there with middle pair type plays or when I win a pot with 37s flopping 2 pair. They see a few hands like that & then really pay you off on your big hands.
People like to slow play on the flop, but I don't really like that. When you catch a nice flop (trips, 2 pair, etc), the guy sitting there with top pair and a good kicker really tries to protect it - Especially if there is a flush or straight draw out there. When a turn card comes, it can scare him even more & if they don't improve, it is hard to get more out of them. On the flop though, they are more likely to put money in protecting a good (but not great) hand.
Later in tournaments, blind stealing becomes more important & sometimes you need to put your chips in with less than top tier hands. I don't really see this as bluffing - It's more a part of tournament play - As you get down in chips, sometimes you need to try a blind steal from the button with 89s.
Posted Wed Jul 27, 2005 1:04 pm GMT by Skribbles
| 1988 TR wrote: |
Later in tournaments, blind stealing becomes more important & sometimes you need to put your chips in with less than top tier hands. I don't really see this as bluffing - It's more a part of tournament play - As you get down in chips, sometimes you need to try a blind steal from the button with 89s. |
When I'm stealing blinds in a tourny, I don't care what the cards are. I could have 72o but if the position, stack size and timing are right, cards don't matter.
Posted Wed Jul 27, 2005 1:14 pm GMT by howzit
| TheSalche wrote: | i get what you're saying skribbles ... but the question here is if i had of called the flop would he check the turn?
another line here would be for check-call turn and flop and bet a good amount on the river if i put him on a flush draw somehow |
The only sane line is check/fold the flop and fold a good amount of time preflop. But that's just me. I'd rather take this hand head's up w/some junk than try outplaying two other players.
What's your thinking on check-raising hte flop and future plans on each street? what hands are you representing? why do you think the guy in late position is weak? It's cool to experiment which is the one of hte best ways to learn but like momma says, think before acting. These guys probably only play their cards, but it's good practice for you to start hand reading AND start representing hands.
In this hand you put up, it's like, I want to bluff so here I go!!!!
Posted Thu Jul 28, 2005 3:07 pm GMT by TheSalche
good point howzit (as always) ... i didnt really have an idea about what i was trying to represent ... i was just trying to "muscle" him out but i can see now that was a pretty stupid idea
i appreciate the feedback here ... im trying to experiment with other play styles and improve some aspects of my game ... bluffing definetly being one of them
i think it just proves time and time again you cant bluff a player who isn't thinking (at all, or about what you might hold)
|
|
