No doubt I bet too much, but was I doomed anyway |
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Posted Wed Aug 03, 2005 4:39 am GMT by red_pen
OK lets have it.
Early in a 10$ STT. I prolly look a bit LAGGY but have the chip lead, albeit mediocre. The table is limpy and passive and Villain is playing tight early doors. He's seen two flops in the first two orbits and folded on the flop both times.
The blinds are 20/40. One place before the cut-off and I pick up KK. There are 4 limpers and I make it 300 to go. Villian calls on the button and the rest of the table fold. I have 2500 left, Villian has 1400 left. The pot is about 800 and the flop is QQ8r. Hmmm an overpair to a paired board. I bet a little more than the pot here and he went all in. I called and he showed me Q8 sooted. But these are the facts of the hand, it is not a bad beat post.
I want to know the general opinions about what is the best line to take post-flop in this sort of game. I want to keep a 98s, 87s or underpair putting in the money while testing whether he's holding a Q so I can throw my Kings away. Is this even possible? Or is it just the case that in these circumstances he's going to double up whatever I do.
Thanks in advance.
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Posted Wed Aug 03, 2005 8:59 am GMT by Soup_dog
Well, his call of your preflop raise with a Q8 suited is VERY loose IMO. So it would be very hard to put him on that hand. After the flop you need to be worried about the Qs, but it's pretty hard to get away from that. Given that he probably would have called or folded depending on whether he hit the flop, I would bet about .5 to .75% of the pot. If he calls, you need to figure he got a piece of it. If he raises, a big piece.
Posted Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:26 am GMT by Loonbat
ICK - he called another 6.5 BBs with Q8s, after having 1 bet in the pot ... write his name down and look for NL cash games that he plays.
I like the pot sized bet and I like a fold when he comes over the top.
Posted Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:45 am GMT by Muck
Disclaimer: IMHO
The size of the PF raise seems well judged for the opposition.
But on the flop I wouldn’t have bet pot. In this situation I would go for a continuation/probe bet of 2/3 the pot.
I think it’s large enough to fold the same hands that would fold to the pot size bet but saves you some chips.
If he comes over the top fold.
I think a flat call would be unlikely with that board since there’s no real drawing potential and the odds are he’s slow playing. So I’d try and get to the showdown as cheaply as possible.
Posted Thu Aug 04, 2005 1:18 pm GMT by titans4ever
With the size of the bet you pushed out there you left him little choice. A smaller bet would have done the same and then you could have let it go and not felt committed to call.
I think the biggest mistake you made was calling the all in. Even if he did not have the Q you he could have had 88. He made a power move on you and at that stage of the tournament you say "nice bet" and let it go. KK is not breakable when a pair hits the board.
Posted Fri Aug 05, 2005 7:08 am GMT by red_pen
Many thanks for your views people.
Yeah I did kind of cook my own goose with my pot bet. His all-in gave me about a 450 or thereabouts call into a 3200 pot and I couldn't get away: a rabid case of the "bluff police" + a thin draw convinced me I had the odds.
I am still pretty confused about how I could have played it (forgetting the fact that Villian had flopped a full house for now).
A pot bet takes it down if he missed unless he fancies a bluff, induces a push if he holds a queen or 88, which i may or may not call, and gives him a decision if he's holding an 8 or a pocket pair.
A push will take it down if he missed, gives him a decision if he's holding an 8 or a pocket pair (prolly a fold?) and would unnerve him if hes playing a QJ, QT (but he's certainly calling).
A half to two-thirds pot sized bet will take it down if he missed. Although I am folding if he raises, i think if he's holding a Q or an 8 he's going to call as he would with a pocket pair. And if he calls and the turn blanks I have a tough decision to make.
So this leaves me with a check or a small bet. And I am more and more liking the check, but not for any reason other than it doesn't build the pot so much that I can't run away from my hand if my nerve fails me.
I am hoping there is a usual line here and I would really like it explained as I can't get me head round it.
Posted Fri Aug 05, 2005 10:25 pm GMT by titans4ever
I can really make you scratch your head and think more.
David Sklansky in "Tournament Poker for Advanced Players" would tell you to call. You want to keep the pots smaller and not make him throw it all in.
Doyle in Super Systems would tell you bet out there, you have an over pair and unless he has has the Q you are ahead. If he fires back, you can fold or call if you think it is just a power play.
What I am telling you is that YOU have to decide how to play in those situations. That is the development of your style. If you can take the big swings of big pots, bet out there like Doyle. If you are a little more conservative player, call here like Sklansky would. Thats why I love poker, trying to get into another players head and see what they are thinking.
Posted Sat Aug 06, 2005 1:49 am GMT by gol4pro
He flops trips 1/80... and you made him commit 20% of his stack. Pay him off this one time, and win the damn thing anyway.
Posted Mon Aug 08, 2005 11:20 am GMT by gumbie
just bet smaller on the flop ... he's folding without a Q and calling or raising with one.
You could even have checked it, he'd still need big balls to bet without a Q
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:55 pm GMT by UrAteUp
I was playing online the other night and something close to this happened with me involved. I am in late position and delt a J9o. Person in the opening betting goes around with 6 of the 9 other players limping in. I know people would call me crazy for even playing J9o but I had a feeling. Flop comes JJ9. Full boat made and nut hand ready to put everyone to sleep. I bet $450.00 just to try to drive some people out of the draw. One person stays and ups it to $600. I call. Next card is a 6. I bet $700 figuring he would put me on a hand a lay his down. No dice. He raised me all in. I called. He turned over a QQ. Had he raised me large pre-flop I would not have even played my J9o. It goes to show when you have QQ, KK or even AA put in a sizable bet to try to knock some people off of the draw.
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 5:39 pm GMT by Geno
| UrAteUp wrote: | | I bet $450.00 just to try to drive some people out of the draw. One person stays and ups it to $600. |
You flopped a hand that only a runner runner could beat and you bet to remove draws? I gotta say that this is a clean cut case of the wrong play! If you had checked, someone could made their straight or flush on the turn and started betting into you at which point you had them by the short and curlies unless they spike a straight flush on the river. You were lucky to get a caller and could have walked off with very little with that bet 
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 5:43 pm GMT by UrAteUp
Geno,
When you put it like that I see I did make a bad play. I am making a note of this in my notebook of poker knowledge. Thanks for the tip. That's why I keep hanging out here to try to gain more knowledge and improve my play.
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 6:02 pm GMT by 1988 TR
| Geno wrote: | | UrAteUp wrote: | | I bet $450.00 just to try to drive some people out of the draw. One person stays and ups it to $600. |
You flopped a hand that only a runner runner could beat and you bet to remove draws? I gotta say that this is a clean cut case of the wrong play! If you had checked, someone could made their straight or flush on the turn and started betting into you at which point you had them by the short and curlies unless they spike a straight flush on the river. You were lucky to get a caller and could have walked off with very little with that bet |
I agree with the over bet, but it wasn't a runner, runner situation.
Several hands just need a turn card to take the lead :
AA
KK
QQ
99
J10
QJ
KJ
AJ
Posted Sat Sep 03, 2005 8:35 pm GMT by JiveTurkey
OP played the KK fine.
You're going to double that guy up with that flop. Anyone who advocates a smaller bet and release the hand to any raise is weak, plain and simple. You had to bet out the flop, and you were getting damn near 5-1 to call the reraise, with an overpair. Bet and fold to a raise is the worst play you could possibly make here, plain and simple. Even if you tone the bet down to say, 400 chips. The pot is still 2600 after he moves in, and you're paying 1000 to play for it, with what is likely the best hand.
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