what would you have done? |
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Posted Thu Aug 04, 2005 2:58 pm GMT by jimmyg_123
I am play in a casino $1/$2 NL ($300 max buy in) and Villian1 (V1) sat down 1 hand ago with $300. Villian2 (V2) and I have been there for about 30-60 minutes. I notice V2 bets/raises into his draw - I don't remember his chip count, but it wasn't impressive. I am sitting on the button about even with $300 as well. V1 is in 4th position after the BB and V2 is in 5th position after the BB. I am dealt K  4 and 4 people limp in before me - I limp in as well, flollwed by the SB and BB checks. The flop comes Q , 10  , 8 . Everyone checks as do I. The turn comes 5 , SB, BB, someone else, and V1 check, and V2 bets $15 (there is $14 in the pot). I re-raise to $45 with my made flush thinking V2 has the As and is betting into the draw. Everyone folds to V1 who, surprisingly, re-raises another 100$ making the bet $145 to go. V2 quickly folds, leaving me and my decision.
Here's what went through my head at this point.
Does V1 already have the nut flush? Does V1 have the As and is semi-bluffing? If I just call, surely it will be an all in situation after the river. Should I push it right now all in? I have seen it a 1000 times - K flush loses to A high flush, is it worth all my chips? This is why I hate playing this hand, but for $2 on the button I like to experiment with playing position and it is now biting me in the ass.
After some replies I will tell you how it turned out.
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Posted Thu Aug 04, 2005 3:21 pm GMT by Soup_dog
 ouch. Thats a tough choice.
I think...
I think...
I think...
I would push all in. Simply because I think he is trying to chase you out.
Posted Thu Aug 04, 2005 3:29 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
That's purely a reading situation. If you read him for the A x , then you have no choice but to fold. But if you put him on the draw, you have to re-raise all-in. If you've never seen him re-raise with a draw, there is a good chance you are beat. It is also possible he has a hand like J 10 , J 9 , or 10 9 , so that he has a made flush with an out to a straight flush.
There is one card in the whole deck he needs to beat you, but whether you think he has it controls how you ought to play this. With all that limping, it's possible he has the AXs, but why he wouldn't raise a hand like this pre-flop confuses me, especially since he's the type that likes to bet draws (I notice that type of player often likes to bet weak suited aces as well).
That huge re-raise also bothers me--if he is really re-raising with a draw, he's a far weaker player than I thought. I think you have to put him on the made flush, and with you raising him the pot on his initial bet, the nut flush is certainly possible. He may be SMARTER than I thought, and his bet was meant to induce a raise from you, since he had advertised raising draws before.
In any case, I might have bet on that flop for 2 reasons:
1. Get information on who else has a draw (since it's unlikely anyone has a Q). You may win it right there if no one has spades.
2. To buy a free card on the river.
If V2 had had to call a flop bet, it might have given you a better clue if he had the nut draw.
Posted Thu Aug 04, 2005 3:42 pm GMT by Skribbles
Its tough, but I think you have to push. You have 2nd from the nuts and should not be folding in my opinion. If you folded every K high flush to some resistance you would be missing out on alot of money.
Posted Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:23 pm GMT by TheSalche
this is a hard one to get away from ... id almost certainly read him for Ax spades ... most people will limp with a hand like this hoping to get paid off by a smaller flush. i dont think you're missing out on a lot of money with this because i don't think J10spades pushes this hard ...
since you posted it, im guessing you either folded it and are wonderign about it, or you pushed and he called you with the nuts
Posted Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:24 pm GMT by jimmyg_123
| Quote: | | With all that limping, it's possible he has the AXs, but why he wouldn't raise a hand like this pre-flop confuses me, especially since he's the type that likes to bet draws |
I think I need to explain that there are two players I have referred to. V1 becomes my ultimate opponent - he is the one who just sat at the table and initially checked after the turn. V2 is the player who made the first bet of $15 after the turn and is the guy who I noticed bets into his draws.
I didn't know anything about V1 so my dilemma stems from the fact that I cannot put him on a hand. I do not know his style of play. The fact that he checked twice and then came over the top confused the hell out of me.
V2, the one who I thought was betting into his flush draw quickly folded after the re-raise.
Let's see if anyone has anything to add and then I will tell you the result.
thanks everyone, I am new at this site and I already love it.
/quote
Posted Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:27 pm GMT by Soup_dog
Hmmm.... I've changed my mind. Fold it. When someone makes a bet that confuses you its usually a warning flag. Lay it down and wiat until you have a better read.
Posted Thu Aug 04, 2005 4:53 pm GMT by 1988 TR
I would move all in. I'm thinking he would have bet the flop with the nut flush draw.
He might be raising you with a flopped st, a baby flush, or trips.
I think you will have a better hand enough times to come out ahead with this play, although you will sometimes take a beat.
Posted Thu Aug 04, 2005 5:02 pm GMT by Skribbles
Did the villain slowplaying a flop straight cross into your mind? Limping in with 8's or 5's?
He could have limped in with 8's, made his set and since he was in early position was playing for a check/raise on the flop. With the flush card coming on the turn he raised aggresively trying to get someone to lay down a weak flush/flush draw.
Posted Thu Aug 04, 2005 5:29 pm GMT by howzit
call any raise.
sorry, he's showing me the nuts to me.
if he has Ax go and reload.
So he's either got naked A , baby flush, set, or the nut flush.
IMO, it goes baby flush, nutflush, naked A , and then a set.
I think this is a baby flush, i call behind and let him move in drawing dead on teh river.
Posted Thu Aug 04, 2005 6:08 pm GMT by howzit
to explain this a little better. this looks most like a flush over flush so one of you is drawing dead (discount the gut shot straight flush).
On the turn, you're getting immediate pot odds of 2:1 (~$10 preflop + $45x2 + $100 raise) so you're getting 200:100. so right there, let's say can you convince yourself that he's going to have the nut flush 33% of the time and he'll check-down the river if a scare card comes (paired board or the A )
But you assume he's going to push any blank river and he has $150 in the back. your effective odds are really $350:250. Closer to 7:5, so just by my monkey math, you'll have to consider your break-even point around 40% = 5/(5+7) that he has the nut flush to fold here.
If you fold here, you're giving up ~60% of the pot equity in the long run and will also allow people to run you over.
whatever you do, make him show his hand first and don't show your hand unless you have the winner.
Also, it'd be good to get others to check my math.
Posted Thu Aug 04, 2005 6:53 pm GMT by jimmyg_123
Hey thanks everyone for your replies. Some interesting ideas. It turns out I did fold, mostly for the reason about not being able to put a read on him and I figured I would save my chips for another fight. So as I fold I mutter "I believe you" - implying that he had the nut flush - he replied " What? you don't belive me?" and showed his cards - J-9 off.
He did flop the straight and re-raised to push me out. But the thing is (and I use the excuse that this hand happened early in my attempts at learning the game) I never even thought of this possibility. So I also learned to decide to play my suited K from the get go. I shouldn't have put myself in that spot if I was only going to back out anyway.
Posted Thu Aug 04, 2005 7:04 pm GMT by jimmyg_123
I forgot to ask - if you had the nut flush at the turn, would you re-raise over the top like that, or would you smooth call, and continue with the trap?
Posted Thu Aug 04, 2005 7:06 pm GMT by 1988 TR
| jimmyg_123 wrote: | | I forgot to ask - if you had the nut flush at the turn, would you re-raise over the top like that, or would you smooth call, and continue with the trap? |
Since he only bet 15 on the turn, I would re-raise - Don't want him to see a cheap river with 2 pair or trips. I rarely slow play.
Posted Thu Aug 04, 2005 7:23 pm GMT by Skribbles
| Skribbles wrote: | | Its tough, but I think you have to push. You have 2nd from the nuts and should not be folding in my opinion. If you folded every K high flush to some resistance you would be missing out on alot of money. |
| Skribbles wrote: |
Did the villain slowplaying a flop straight cross into your mind? |
Posted Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:22 pm GMT by jimmyg_123
| Quote: | jimmyg_123 wrote:
I forgot to ask - if you had the nut flush at the turn, would you re-raise over the top like that, or would you smooth call, and continue with the trap?
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When i wrote that I meant should I assumed that V1 could not have the nut flush (ace high) based on the fact that he went over the top instead of just calling my raise and continuing the slow play.
If I was playing against you and you had the Ace high flush, after the turn and I raised, would you reraise with the nuts or just smooth call?
Posted Thu Aug 04, 2005 8:27 pm GMT by zinn0
Personally, I would raise here only because you don't want the naked ace, if he is out there, hitting another spade. If I have the nuts, I would generally just smooth call the turn, depending on what I put my opponent on. If I fear he may have a set or 2 pr, I am raising, but usually, I just smooth call the nuts, raise the river. 8)
Posted Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:10 pm GMT by TheSalche
| jimmyg_123 wrote: | | Quote: | jimmyg_123 wrote:
I forgot to ask - if you had the nut flush at the turn, would you re-raise over the top like that, or would you smooth call, and continue with the trap?
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When i wrote that I meant should I assumed that V1 could not have the nut flush (ace high) based on the fact that he went over the top instead of just calling my raise and continuing the slow play.
If I was playing against you and you had the Ace high flush, after the turn and I raised, would you reraise with the nuts or just smooth call? |
id reraise ... smooth call would look suspicious, and if you reraise and take down the pot right there your table image improves a lot and you get the feeling that people respect your bets
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