Interesting hand. I think I played it okay but... |
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Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 9:59 am GMT by screwthepooch
FullTiltPoker Game #180945771: Table Lamb (6 max) - $1/$2 - No Limit Hold'em - 19:10:24 ET - 2005/08/10
Seat 2: Acoustic ($63.80)
Seat 3: upaymybills ($195)
Seat 4: raytheon ($263.50)
Seat 5: xxxrobberyxxx ($330.25)
Seat 6: Loudude ($83.20)
raytheon posts the small blind of $1
xxxrobberyxxx posts the big blind of $2
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to upaymybills  
Loudude calls $2
Acoustic calls $2
upaymybills calls $2
raytheon calls $1
xxxrobberyxxx checks
*** FLOP ***   
raytheon checks
xxxrobberyxxx bets $10
Loudude raises to $81.20, and is all in
Acoustic folds
upaymybills calls $81.20
raytheon folds
xxxrobberyxxx calls $71.20
*** TURN *** 
xxxrobberyxxx checks
upaymybills checks
*** RIVER *** 
xxxrobberyxxx checks
upaymybills checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Loudude shows   (three of a kind, Sixes)
upaymybills mucks
xxxrobberyxxx mucks
Loudude wins the pot ($251.60) with three of a kind, Sixes
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $253.60 | Rake $2
Board:
Seat 2: Acoustic folded on the Flop
Seat 3: upaymybills (button) mucked - two pair, Jacks and Sixes
Seat 4: raytheon (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 5: xxxrobberyxxx (big blind) mucked   - a pair of Jacks
Seat 6: Loudude showed and won ($251.60) with three of a kind, Sixes
I didn't play this post-flop all that well I guess, although the third heart coming on the turn definitely left me feeling like I was losing. What irks me is that if anything, I should have put the initial bettor on the flush draw and therefore once he was all-in, I shouldn't have had to worry about the last guy. It's hard to say though because it was kind of a weird hand. When the turn was checked, I should have shown some balls and made some kind of bet to possibly win something.
ScrewThePooch
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Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:08 am GMT by Dave B
I think you played the entire hand rather poorly.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:26 am GMT by TheSalche
hands like these are why i lost my NL ring skills ... cause I wouldn't have been able to find the fold button with top two either
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:51 am GMT by Skribbles
I don't like this hand at all.
J6s is a none starter IMO. All you have is a flush draw and a weak one at that.
Asides from the pre-flop call, I hate the call on the flop. You have $2 invested in this pot and you are willing to risk $80+ on 2 pair? You had to think that one of the has at least a J with a good kicker that could pair, an overpair or a set, all of which could either outdraw you or have you drawing to 2 outs.
Not a place were you need to risk 40BB. I think you could have easily folded this hand and waited for a better situation.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:58 am GMT by 1988 TR
I think you could have bet the turn & seen where you were at.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:06 am GMT by Skribbles
| 1988 TR wrote: | | I think you could have bet the turn & seen where you were at. |
What size of bet would you make?
With a pot of about $250, anything less than a push would look pretty weak as he only had about about $110 left. If the guy had any pair he would have to call down because of the enormous odds he'd be getting.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:11 am GMT by Soup_dog
Good grief! It's a train wreck! First, what were you doing in the pot in the first place? Then calling an $80 bet with two pair? Even if you WERE ahead at that point, which I would have doubted, there are approx 3,465 outs that could have beaten you on the turn or river. (Just an estimate.) I would have kissed those $4 goodbye and told him to spend them wisely.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:41 am GMT by screwthepooch
With all due respect, you guys are a bunch of whimps. All this crying about my calling $80? First off, I'm in the hand because it's a short-handed game and it's $2 to call on the button. If it gets raised pre-flop any decent size by the SB or BB, then I'm folding. The reason I went to this table in the first place is because the avg. pot size was much bigger than any of the other 1-2 $200 buy-in tables, so I had an idea that the players were more maniacal. So, I flop top 2 pair and after a $10 bet, the guy wants to go all-in and you want me to puss out here? I put the guy on one of two things. Either he has Overpair, or has a flush draw. I am never going to put a guy on trips in this situation because I would not expect him to push and possibly have all of us fold behind him. I expect a smooth call to slow-play, or with the 2 hearst out there, maybe a decent raise to protect his hand, but not all-in. The maniac to my left I certainly didn't expect him to call, figuring there is no way that he could have a hand to call with (which in my opinion he did not). So, in my opinion, the only 2 errors I made here were not going all-in myself in case the next guy had a flush draw to push him out and not betting the turn to see where I was at. Keep in mind this is only $200 buy-in. But in all honesty, I would make the exact same play at the $1000 table. Most people would not push all-in when they flop trips after a mere $10 bet. If you can't call an all-in by a short-stack with top 2 pair, then I'm not sure why you'd even play poker.
ScrewThePooch
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:45 am GMT by 1988 TR
| Skribbles wrote: | | 1988 TR wrote: | | I think you could have bet the turn & seen where you were at. |
What size of bet would you make?
With a pot of about $250, anything less than a push would look pretty weak as he only had about about $110 left. If the guy had any pair he would have to call down because of the enormous odds he'd be getting. |
30 turn, 30 river.
If he does call down, I think I have him beat.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:48 am GMT by screwthepooch
| Dave B wrote: | | I think you played the entire hand rather poorly. |
Well thought out. Thanks for all the insightful analysis.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:51 am GMT by screwthepooch
| 1988 TR wrote: | | Skribbles wrote: | | 1988 TR wrote: | | I think you could have bet the turn & seen where you were at. |
What size of bet would you make?
With a pot of about $250, anything less than a push would look pretty weak as he only had about about $110 left. If the guy had any pair he would have to call down because of the enormous odds he'd be getting. |
30 turn, 30 river.
If he does call down, I think I have him beat. |
I agree completely. I played it way too scared all of a sudden and should have grown some balls. Especially since I would have probably called any bet by him anyway. That's what makes my timidity so ridiculous. Next time I will pull my nuts out of my girlfriend's purse and do just that.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:52 am GMT by 1988 TR
Pooch - I agree, a lot of the guys on this board are extremely tight - Take their advice with a grain of salt - There is a reason they haven't moved passed the 1/2 structrued. If it's not on a chart printed in a book, the hand is not playable. Nevermind that it is shorthanded, or you are on the button, or everyone has limped in. lol
I agree I would have a hard time putting him on trips. To have tripped up on the flop, they would need the case Jacks, Sixes, or the dueces. Sure it is possible, but unlikely.
A more likely bet by the short stack is 10J, flush draw, etc. A over pair is a little unlikely given the lack of pre flop action, but I have seen short stacks make that play where they just call & then push their chips on the flop in an attempt to double up.
With 2 people in, I put them on top pair & a draw. You are definitely getting pot odds to play the hand at that point - Especially since you are most likely the FAVORITE in the hand.
If you play everyhand suspecting someone flopped trips, you will have a very hard time ever playing any kind of poker.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:57 am GMT by Dave B
I think it gets to the point.
You will lose playing J6 whether the table is short handed, limit, NL, heads up. It is a horrible hand, throw it away.
Let me ask you, since your table selection and methodology (see flops on aggressive tables w/ marginal hands) was such a great idea, I am sure you got all your money back and then some? How do you do overall month to month playing like this?
If you want to gamble, that is fine. If you want to win at poker consistant, this is not a good strategy. I want people that sit down and play every hand against multiply action pots because the payoffs are large. Sure they hit from time to time, often they are up huge, for every one that wins, 3 lose their buyins, and over the next 2-3 hours, the winners are usually back to even. Meanwhile, the 3-4 smart players that play every few hands quitely accumulate chips without anyone noticing.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:05 pm GMT by 1988 TR
Dave J6s agreed is not the best hand. But playing it short handed, with a bunch of limpers, from the button, in an unraised pot is not that bad.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:26 pm GMT by Soup_dog
| 1988 TR wrote: | | Dave J6s agreed is not the best hand. But playing it short handed, with a bunch of limpers, from the button, in an unraised pot is not that bad. |
Sure, it's not that bad, based on the circumstances, it's not that good either. These are the kind of hands that will end up biting you in the butt. I play all kinds of wierd hands too depending on the circumstances. Heck I won a 50 pot from early position this morning with 2 3 suited. Would I do it all the time? No. More often than not, that hand will lose. I played it based on the table.
That being said, I gave what I felt was an honest evaluation of the hand. J6, even suited, isnt a great starting hand. Limping in isn't so bad I suppose, but I sure as heck would have thrown it away to the big bet.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:36 pm GMT by screwthepooch
Dave,
Let me just clarify the difference between the type of player you described and myself. The 3rd guy who called in that hand with J5 offsuit because he hit his Jack...that's not me. Let's say I hit the Jack, but not my 6. The first guy bets 10, the second guy goes all-in. I fold as fast as I can. Even if the 2nd guy just calls the $10 I fold here. The only thing I'm looking to flop is either my Jack with very little betting from the others (and I would go slow). Or 2 pair, a flush draw (or better yet a flush) (Trips would be okay too lol). What I'm saying is that I have no problem folding here even if I hit top pair because I recognize the danger of Top Pair crappy kicker. I have even been getting more experience with folding Top Pair Top Kicker when I get raised too much or the board is suspicious. So don't lump me in with the "play any 2 cards" type of player. I fold this hand from early position with no problem....although if I am on the blinds and the same flop comes, would you have faulted me for calling the all-in? It seems like everyone here (except 1988TR) is so concerned about the pre-flop call of a measly $2 despite the fact that it's a family pot with no raises and I'm on the button. Just can't quite figure out how any of you rocks make any money. You're the kind of guy who I will beat with 7,8 suited because you thought your pre-flop raise from 2 to 7 should have kept my "stinky-ass" from calling. Then you'll say as you lose with AK or AA or KK..."Oh my god! how could you have called my raise with that crap"....as I rake the chips.
ScrewThePooch
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:46 pm GMT by howzit
I have never thrown away J6 suited on the button in a limped pot.
Depending on table tightness and my image, i might raise with it to pick up the dead money.
I make this call almost 100% of the time for 40BBs, now if we were deep and sitting on 200+BBs, i go into the tank.
Because the range of short-stacked player hands is too wide to narrow it down to a set. Do not fold, do not pass go, call. You are ahead the majority of the time. Anyway, so what if this guy doubles up? he's too bad to hold on to it.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:47 pm GMT by 1988 TR
| Soup_dog wrote: |
That being said, I gave what I felt was an honest evaluation of the hand. J6, even suited, isnt a great starting hand. Limping in isn't so bad I suppose, but I sure as heck would have thrown it away to the big bet. |
Throw it away pre flop sure, but not on the flop. No way no how. You flopped top 2 with a very good board. Barring trips, you are a huge favorite.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:51 pm GMT by 1988 TR
| howzit wrote: | I have never thrown away J6 suited on the button in a limped pot.
Depending on table tightness and my image, i might raise with it to pick up the dead money.
I make this call almost 100% of the time for 40BBs, now if we were deep and sitting on 200+BBs, i go into the tank.
Because the range of short-stacked player hands is too wide to narrow it down to a set. Do not fold, do not pass go, call. You are ahead the majority of the time. Anyway, so what if this guy doubles up? he's too bad to hold on to it. |
U rock.
Some of you guys really need to expand your poker thinking.... Break the mold a bit so to speak. You have started to play, but only really know how to play made hands - either on the flop or pre flop. Anyone can play AA, KK, AKs. At a short handed table, it's going to take a lot more than that to be profitable.
Also keep in mind that it is a no limit table. $2 is nothing to call with a chance to win $200 - As long as you have the discipline to fold in the situations Pooch has described (Hitting only the jack, etc.).
Folding because a short stack MIGHT have trips is simply NOT the right play.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:56 pm GMT by screwthepooch
| Soup_dog wrote: |
That being said, I gave what I felt was an honest evaluation of the hand. J6, even suited, isnt a great starting hand. Limping in isn't so bad I suppose, but I sure as heck would have thrown it away to the big bet. |
9 times out of 10, that big bet will have been somebody who had J with a K,Q, or 10 kicker (maybe Ace, but likely not with no pre-flop raise.) Seriously, if you flop top 2 pair and fold in this situation, you are a huge pussy and are most likely folding the winning hand the majority of times. As 1988 said, if you worry about someon flopping trips every time the flop comes and there is a big bet, then you're never gonna play well. In my experience, big flop bets like that guy did are overpair, top pair top kicker or betting on the come for the flush (maybe with over cards also). The irony is that his play actually does work well because no one expects him to be holding trips. But, most players slow-play and that's why I would call every time. It worked out for him this time, but if I don't have a hand to call with, and if the dumbass to my left is played by anyone on this board or any decent player, then he wins very little. I think looking back, that there might have been some interaction between the short-stack and the maniac who initially bet $10. That might be why he went all-in so quick knowing the other guy would call? Hard to know what might have transpired between those 2 before hand...maybe one was steaming? If that was the case though, then the maniac should certainly have been concerned that I had entered the pot between the two of them. As it happens, I later took about $150 from the maniac. One hand for $50 I can't remember how it went, but the other hand I was dealt AA on the small blind and he was under the gun and went all-in for $100 immediately. LOL...I called and beat his KK. I think that hand everyone here can agree I played correctly right?
LOL.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:59 pm GMT by howzit
btw, take it easy pooch.
calling people pussies ain't the best way to learn from them or have them be receptive to your ideas.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:03 pm GMT by screwthepooch
| 1988 TR wrote: | | howzit wrote: | I have never thrown away J6 suited on the button in a limped pot.
Depending on table tightness and my image, i might raise with it to pick up the dead money.
I make this call almost 100% of the time for 40BBs, now if we were deep and sitting on 200+BBs, i go into the tank.
Because the range of short-stacked player hands is too wide to narrow it down to a set. Do not fold, do not pass go, call. You are ahead the majority of the time. Anyway, so what if this guy doubles up? he's too bad to hold on to it. |
U rock.
Some of you guys really need to expand your poker thinking.... Break the mold a bit so to speak. You have started to play, but only really know how to play made hands - either on the flop or pre flop. Anyone can play AA, KK, AKs. At a short handed table, it's going to take a lot more than that to be profitable.
Also keep in mind that it is a no limit table. $2 is nothing to call with a chance to win $200 - As long as you have the discipline to fold in the situations Pooch has described (Hitting only the jack, etc.).
Folding because a short stack MIGHT have trips is simply NOT the right play. |
Hear hear. Think of it this way. With everyone reading the same books and acting in the same tight fashion, doesn't it make sense to adjust your play depending on the situation? If i'm at a tight table with guys who think a raise to 2.5 bb should tell me that they have AK or AA, then I will laugh as I call with connected suiters and hit 2 pairs, flushes and str8's that they don't see coming. On the other hand, I do respect a decent pre-flop raise and will not play a crappy hand against these bets...and even moreso will not call unless I flop a monster. Oh, btw...TOP TWO PAIR IS A MONSTER. Just my opinion.
ScrewThePooch
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:04 pm GMT by Dave B
You may be a little surprised if you see me play. I do play junk from time to time, but j6 suited has little or no value. I prefer 75o, 96 or 200 other hands to J6.
Hear me out J  6 flop 7 5 4 and a raise and reraise in front of you to all in, can you call w/ 4th nuts and a str8 flush draw?
In your case, you hit 2 pair and had a pot bet and LARGE raise in front of you, IMO, I think you need to let this go. You might be laying down the winner, but that is OK. I am not afraid to lay down winners. If he does this to me 3-4 times, then I might pick a spot and call. What do you do if you call his all in and then pot bet reraises all in for anyother 100-200?
If I am playing a junk hand, then I need to see it for what it is worth, junk. If I flop trips, 2 pair, or the like, I need to be prepared to let it go.
Think about this, only quads, JJ6, a straight flush or darn near a royal flush will give you the nuts. Anything else and there are a lot of hands that will beat you. Then it becomes a crap shoot when CALLING an all in.
I dont need the nuts to make a call for my entire stack, but I dont want a lot of hands out there that can beat me or out draw me.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:04 pm GMT by 1988 TR
| howzit wrote: | btw, take it easy pooch.
calling people pussies ain't the best way to learn from them or have them be receptive to your ideas. |
I understand what you are saying - But he didn't actually call anyone that name. Just said if you would fold to a small stack all in, then you are a cat. 
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:05 pm GMT by screwthepooch
| howzit wrote: | btw, take it easy pooch.
calling people pussies ain't the best way to learn from them or have them be receptive to your ideas. |
You are right...my apologies....but I do think folding here is a weak play.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:42 pm GMT by Loonbat
You have 2 limpers in front, and 2 blinds left to act. If you want to "play", than raise the damn hand or fold it. How good is J6s (or off ... it really doesn't matter) w/ 4 seeing the flop.
Order of events:
Flop: Wow - flopped top 2 pr
Turn/river: I must have the third best hand
Showdown: Damn it - could have made money with 2nd best hand
Moral of the story - stay away from the hand. Yes, alot of people here play tighter but alot of people don't lose with hands like this because they don't play them.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:50 pm GMT by howzit
| Loonbat wrote: | You have 2 limpers in front, and 2 blinds left to act. If you want to "play", than raise the damn hand or fold it. How good is J6s (or off ... it really doesn't matter) w/ 4 seeing the flop.
Order of events:
Flop: Wow - flopped top 2 pr
Turn/river: I must have the third best hand
Showdown: Damn it - could have made money with 2nd best hand
Moral of the story - stay away from the hand. Yes, alot of people here play tighter but alot of people don't lose with hands like this because they don't play them. |
um no. you make a lot of money playing against opponents who are out of position and have to get pot stuck w/J5, J2, 62, KJ, 1010, flush draw.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:53 pm GMT by Skribbles
| howzit wrote: |
um no. you make a lot of money playing against opponents who are out of position and have to get pot stuck w/J5, J2, 62, KJ, 1010, flush draw. |
You will make money off these players regardless of your hand selection. If they are playing J5, J2 and 62 wouldn't it be a little smarter to wait for a solid starting hand instead of playing crap against crap? Why lower your standards because they are playing weak hands?
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:57 pm GMT by howzit
because if they are playing crappy cards u can use position and pound away at these guys.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:59 pm GMT by Loonbat
| howzit wrote: |
um no. you make a lot of money playing against opponents who are out of position and have to get pot stuck w/J5, J2, 62, KJ, 1010, flush draw. |
Howzit - while I respect your opinion, I consider this a LAG argument giving rationale for playing most any unraised button (or cutoff) hand in a game of this nature.
As a lark, can someone run the percentages for a J6s again 3 random hands. Tell me what the longterm EV is ...
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 2:05 pm GMT by howzit
J6 is negative EV if the cards were placed face up and everybody played perfect poker after that.
But i think the point of this hand is not pure expectation preflop, it's deciding if hero's hand is good against short-stacks range of all-in hands. I argue that it is highly positive.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 2:10 pm GMT by Dave B
Regardless of whether J6 is a worthwhile starting hand, do you call against a pot bet and an all in with it once hitting 2 pair?
When I lose @ NL, it usually isnt from being outdrawn, it is from not believing that someone would go all in if they were really that strong. Hands EXACTLY like this one.
Now, maybe the table was just splashing chips and there was no reason to doubt that you are ahead, that I dont know. My point isnt whether you were ahead or behind, it is why get involved in the first place.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 2:19 pm GMT by Soup_dog
I guess I am having a problem with stakes. (I play a much lower limit because I am still trying to build a bankroll.) I see $80 "all-in" against my $4 in the pot and it makes me think "why risk $76 on a hand that can be beat 8 ways from tuesday." When I change the $ amounts to BB in makes a bit more sense and I can see your point. I still would be a bit leary though of the $10 bet and then huge reraise.
I would probably still lay it down post flop. I would rather pick another place to make my stand. I actually prefer to be the one going "all-in" as opposed to calling someone else.
I completely understand your reasoning about everyone reading the same books, and changing things up to beat those players. I even make that play more than my fair share in late position. These kind of plays will make you a lot of money, but by the same token, you will get bit in the butt at times too. This is one of those times.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 2:50 pm GMT by TheSalche
| Dave B wrote: | Regardless of whether J6 is a worthwhile starting hand, do you call against a pot bet and an all in with it once hitting 2 pair?
When I lose @ NL, it usually isnt from being outdrawn, it is from not believing that someone would go all in if they were really that strong. Hands EXACTLY like this one. |
agreed ... people know that bluffing is harder to do online than live, and crazy looking all-in bets are usually a great way for them to get paid off if their at a loose table
i gotta say, both to 1988 TR and screwthepooch, you guys have been quite quick to criticize other players on this forum for their style of play. personally i play as a rockish type because i play at lower limits, and im never gonna get people to lay down a hand so why not punish them when ive got the goods? secondly my bankroll couldnt handle the swings of playing more aggressively all the time
with that said, i think since pooch realized that if he didnt hit hard, and ifthere was a lot of action after the flop, that he would fold the hand, playing J6 from the button is a good play, more likely a better play to do in NL rather than FL ... i would say though that turn/river bets are a necessity because you cant think that there is a set over set over two pair situation here, and you'd probably have to hope for the guy who went all in to have the only set, and you're beating the remaining player
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 2:50 pm GMT by howzit
The effective stack size is currently around 40BBs. This isn't much in NL cash games, which makes this call easier. There's something Chip Reese said, "when the money finally goes in, there comes a point where the math doesn't matter. It's whether or not you believe he's got it this time." I wrote earlier that if we were sitting on effective stacks of $400 instead of $80, this decision is much, much harder and it'll come down to gut and reads.
Ok, that's obviously obvious. Unfortunately, we don't have enough info here to rule out that the short-stack is moving in w/much worse hands. We all agree that short-stack can make a move w/a set, top/bottom pair,
bottom two, top pair good kicker, top pair crap kicker, flush draw, and a bluff. We can assiss a % of likelihood he has for each hand that he's representing and then calculate the EV from that.
In this situation, there are many hands that the short-stack could have that you are beating to make this call profitable over the long run.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:05 pm GMT by howzit
| Dave B wrote: | | My point isnt whether you were ahead or behind, it is why get involved in the first place. |
ok, that's an acceptable argument. I would consider your hand range more "normal" and within a tighter range.
My strategy against you would be to limp in w/big hands so that you'll pay me off w/your one pair hands or just keep pounding you preflop w/any 2 and get two buttons per round.
please answer this hypothetical hand honestly:
Two limpers, and u have KQs on the button and calls. limped pot 5 players. Flop is K - Q - 8, two hearts. Crazy UTG makes a small bet, short-stack moves in, what do you do now?
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:19 pm GMT by screwthepooch
| howzit wrote: | | Dave B wrote: | | My point isnt whether you were ahead or behind, it is why get involved in the first place. |
ok, that's an acceptable argument. I would consider your hand range more "normal" and within a tighter range.
My strategy against you would be to limp in w/big hands so that you'll pay me off w/your one pair hands or just keep pounding you preflop w/any 2 and get two buttons per round.
please answer this hypothetical hand honestly:
Two limpers, and u have KQs on the button and calls. limped pot 5 players. Flop is K - Q - 8, two hearts. Crazy UTG makes a small bet, short-stack moves in, what do you do now? |
I would call and lose to the pocket 8's 
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:23 pm GMT by Dave B
1st, need to know the numbers of the bet, all in amount and pot amount. If the short stack bet 8 times pot (preflop pot), I fold, easy.
2nd I likely would raise from the button and try to eliminate 2-3 of those or just grab the blinds w/ a decent, but not powerful KQ.
3rd it depends on my read of the style of the players in the hand. Does the blind stab at a lot of pots or only bet if he has the goods-you said maniac, so I likely discount him (but does he slow play big hands or always bet everything regardless)? Is the all in tilting or does he like to push people off draws w/ just TPTK.
Finally-KQ is a bit different that J6. J6 a lot of hands can catch to counterfeit me (AA KK QQ AJ KJ QJ J10 J9 J8 J7) in addition to the hands that have me beat or have better draws.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:26 pm GMT by Loonbat
| howzit wrote: | | Dave B wrote: | | My point isnt whether you were ahead or behind, it is why get involved in the first place. |
ok, that's an acceptable argument. I would consider your hand range more "normal" and within a tighter range.
My strategy against you would be to limp in w/big hands so that you'll pay me off w/your one pair hands or just keep pounding you preflop w/any 2 and get two buttons per round.
please answer this hypothetical hand honestly:
Two limpers, and u have KQs on the button and calls. limped pot 5 players. Flop is K - Q - 8, two hearts. Crazy UTG makes a small bet, short-stack moves in, what do you do now? |
I push all-in and isolate my opponent - easy decision. And I would have pushed all-in on Screw's flop too, if I had been in the hand ... most likely, I wouldn't have been in the hand.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:31 pm GMT by howzit
oh i give up!!!!
which reminds me, when are we going to have another THP freeroll?
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:32 pm GMT by Skribbles
Pushing all-in or re-raising all-in is much, much different than calling one.
Investing 40BB with a very vulnerable hand just doesn't seem worth it.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:37 pm GMT by screwthepooch
Just to further illustrate my willingness to go to the wall and lose with 2 pair...
During lunch I played the same 1-2 $200 buy-in no limit game. I was dealt K,3 suited on the button and called for 2 chips with a couple of limpers. Flop comes K,7,2 rainbow. BB or SB (can't remember) is bets $10 and I call thinking he has the King with better kicker and I need to see a 3 on the turn (or another King) otherwise I need to fold and move on. Turn comes my 3 and he pops out a $38 bet. Here's where I was foolish. I raised to $105 and he goes all-in (we both had about $380 before the hand). I call and to my dismay he has K7, top two pair. I had hoped he was holding King with maybe a Jack or Queen. Looking back I should have considered that since he was in the blinds he could be holding something like this...but it's gonna take a lot to convince me when I have 2 pair that I'm beat. He did convince me as it turned out
I should have just called him down instead of getting greedy. I doubt he would have pushed on the river, so I could have saved some of my stack.
By the way, I would not have played it the same way if I had 7,3 let's say. I have been burned too many times on 2 small pairs with overcards on board.
The good news is that meanwhile I won $250 on heads-ups, so not all was lost.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 3:43 pm GMT by howzit
| screwthepooch wrote: | Just to further illustrate my willingness to go to the wall and lose with 2 pair...
During lunch I played the same 1-2 $200 buy-in no limit game. I was dealt K,3 suited on the button and called for 2 chips with a couple of limpers. Flop comes K,7,2 rainbow. BB or SB (can't remember) is bets $10 and I call thinking he has the King with better kicker and I need to see a 3 on the turn (or another King) otherwise I need to fold and move on. Turn comes my 3 and he pops out a $38 bet. Here's where I was foolish. I raised to $105 and he goes all-in (we both had about $380 before the hand). I call and to my dismay he has K7, top two pair. I had hoped he was holding King with maybe a Jack or Queen. Looking back I should have considered that since he was in the blinds he could be holding something like this...but it's gonna take a lot to convince me when I have 2 pair that I'm beat. He did convince me as it turned out
I should have just called him down instead of getting greedy. I doubt he would have pushed on the river, so I could have saved some of my stack.
By the way, I would not have played it the same way if I had 7,3 let's say. I have been burned too many times on 2 small pairs with overcards on board.
The good news is that meanwhile I won $250 on heads-ups, so not all was lost. |
fool me once, shame on you. fool me twice, shame on me. You a fool?
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:00 pm GMT by 1988 TR
| TheSalche wrote: |
i gotta say, both to 1988 TR and screwthepooch, you guys have been quite quick to criticize other players on this forum for their style of play. personally i play as a rockish type because i play at lower limits, and im never gonna get people to lay down a hand so why not punish them when ive got the goods? secondly my bankroll couldnt handle the swings of playing more aggressively all the time |
I'm quick to criticize? Check out all the posts before I posted.
Meanwhile I'm playing 5/10 NL and other relatively "high stakes" games & doing quite well. So, yes I will let a guy who is still unsuccessful at cracking the 1/2 fixed limits and 10 SNG's that I disagree.
Everyone has different styles - Just because he played J6s here, doesn't make it a bad play just because it didn't fit a particular style. My point is for the style he is going for, top 2 pair is definitely a playable hand on the flop vs a short stack.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:00 pm GMT by screwthepooch
LOL. No one ever accused me of being a tight player, that is for sure. Problem is that I need to think a little more before I click the call and raise buttons. Now that I know his cards, I can see the thought process.
Flop (him): OMG, I just flopped a monster with my crappy big blind hand. I'll throw 10 into the pot and see if I can get a caller. God, I hope someone else has a King.
After my call: Sweet, I just found the guy with a King..I wonder how big his kicker is, I hope it's an Ace so he'll think he has me beat.
Turn (him): A 3 of spades? Hmmm. Now there is a back-door flush out there...I better make him pay if he has Kx suited spades. I'll throw $38.
After my raise to $105: We got a live one...Jesus, I hope he doesn't have trips or I'm screwed...F it...let's gamble...choke on this! RAISE ALL-IN SUCKA!
Cards turn up (him): Sweet, sucka has 2 outs.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:02 pm GMT by Dave B
I am not arguing what is right or wrong here, I guess it just goes down to risk tolerance and when you want to put a lot of chips into a pot. I like to feel that I have a much stronger hand before going there. BTW-I clean people out in limit that raise 2-3 or 4 bets w/ top 2 to my sets or str8s. I only need to win one hand every 2-3 hours against these guys to make my night.
Let me turn the question around a bit, when would you, if ever, lay down top 2 pair if there was only a 2 cards to a str8 or flush, not 3?
With top 2 are you always willing to call an all in against a non-scary board?
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:28 pm GMT by TheSalche
| 1988 TR wrote: | Pooch - I agree, a lot of the guys on this board are extremely tight - Take their advice with a grain of salt - There is a reason they haven't moved passed the 1/2 structrued. If it's not on a chart printed in a book, the hand is not playable. Nevermind that it is shorthanded, or you are on the button, or everyone has limped in. lol
|
thats not a criticism? pretty insulting in my book
all im trying to say is many people here dont play at that high level of NL (there are a few of course, howzit an obvious one) ... there is a much different mentality when you play at a lower level which is where if you play good cards you will be rewarded by people who play bad cards, at higher levels if you try that, you will just see a lot of folds around the table so it seems like you have to mix up your play a lot and play many more less than perfect starting hands
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:32 pm GMT by 1988 TR
| Dave B wrote: | I am not arguing what is right or wrong here, I guess it just goes down to risk tolerance and when you want to put a lot of chips into a pot. I like to feel that I have a much stronger hand before going there. BTW-I clean people out in limit that raise 2-3 or 4 bets w/ top 2 to my sets or str8s. I only need to win one hand every 2-3 hours against these guys to make my night.
Let me turn the question around a bit, when would you, if ever, lay down top 2 pair if there was only a 2 cards to a str8 or flush, not 3?
With top 2 are you always willing to call an all in against a non-scary board? |
Always depends on the player/situation and especially stack size. But unless I had a strong reason to believe he had trips, yes I would not let it go. It has paid off far too many times to be scared of trips & fold. Against a short stack, no way I would fold.
We both have 3k in front of us, then I might consider it.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:34 pm GMT by screwthepooch
| Dave B wrote: | I am not arguing what is right or wrong here, I guess it just goes down to risk tolerance and when you want to put a lot of chips into a pot. I like to feel that I have a much stronger hand before going there. BTW-I clean people out in limit that raise 2-3 or 4 bets w/ top 2 to my sets or str8s. I only need to win one hand every 2-3 hours against these guys to make my night.
Let me turn the question around a bit, when would you, if ever, lay down top 2 pair if there was only a 2 cards to a str8 or flush, not 3?
With top 2 are you always willing to call an all in against a non-scary board? |
Dave,
For me to fold top two pair, I would have to have respect for the bettor based on what I've seen him/her play at the table. I can think of a situation that would make me fold:
Take the hand that started this thread. Put me as the maniac (in position only). I bet $10 on flop, short-stack goes all-in for $80. If the middle guy has shown that he is a tight player or a good one and raises to $200 (which would put me all-in)....who am I kidding? I don't think I'd ever fold...but in this case I probably should!
:D
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:36 pm GMT by 1988 TR
| TheSalche wrote: | | 1988 TR wrote: | Pooch - I agree, a lot of the guys on this board are extremely tight - Take their advice with a grain of salt - There is a reason they haven't moved passed the 1/2 structrued. If it's not on a chart printed in a book, the hand is not playable. Nevermind that it is shorthanded, or you are on the button, or everyone has limped in. lol
|
thats not a criticism? pretty insulting in my book
all im trying to say is many people here dont play at that high level of NL (there are a few of course, howzit an obvious one) ... there is a much different mentality when you play at a lower level which is where if you play good cards you will be rewarded by people who play bad cards, at higher levels if you try that, you will just see a lot of folds around the table so it seems like you have to mix up your play a lot and play many more less than perfect starting hands |
It is absoultely criticism - Meant every bit of it also.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:53 pm GMT by 1988 TR
And this is why I criticize - Posts like this are just plain worthless - You must all be taking notes from Scan-X.
| Dave B wrote: | | I think you played the entire hand rather poorly. |
| Skribbles wrote: | | I don't like this hand at all. |
| Soup_dog wrote: | | Good grief! It's a train wreck! |
Meanwhile if the opponent had AJ and a flush draw, you would all be praising him.
"Nice Play"
"Yes, you have to call here. You are getting +EV because of the draw hands."
Etc.
Get out of the box you have put yourself in and consider the hand.
He flopped top 2 pair. The first better bets 10 and the short stack goes all in. You put him on trips?????? HELL NO
You definitely consider it, I just can't see folding here. In fact I would have gone all in thinking I had the best hand & wanting to isolate the short stack. I definitely wouldn't put the 10 better on trips either - Why would he come out betting pot first to act????? He would check, there would be a bet, and then he would come over the top.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 5:02 pm GMT by 1988 TR
Consider the range of hands the short stack could have :
AK
AQ
AJ
A10
A6
A2
KQ
JK
JQ
J10
J9
J8
J7
J6
J5
J4
J3
J2
34
45
67
68
69
K6
Q6
1010
AA
KK
QQ
99
88
77
66
22
JJ
I have seen shorts stacks go all in on this kind of flop with all these hands. I would immediately discount him having JJ - One, because I have a J, and two because an all in bet there is a HUGE overbet with that kind of monster.
So the only hands that have me beat are the case 6's and 22. I like my chances.....
And if he does have a miracle hand like 66 or 22, I still have 2 outs vs 66 and 4 outs vs 22.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 5:15 pm GMT by Skribbles
I posted that I don't like this hand because he risked 40BB with no information, nothing invested and a vulnerable hand.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 5:31 pm GMT by screwthepooch
I know I may regret asking this question, but what would you do in this circumstance?
You get AA on the button and everyone calls the $2 bet. You raise to $10 and get 2 callers (the same two in the hand we are all discussing from earlier).
Flop comes J,6,2
First guy bets $10, short-stack pushes $80.
Do you really fold now? You have more information than the previously discussed hand, right? 2 callers who are willing to call an $8 raise. They could have pocket overpairs, AJ, AK or flush draw with those high cards. You can't put them on J6 or J2 or 62 really.
So, I ask, do you really fold AA because of a short-stack $80 push? I wouldn't fold here and this hand isn't even as good as the Top two pair I had in the original example.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 5:46 pm GMT by NickHow
| 1988 TR wrote: |
Everyone has different styles - Just because he played J6s here, doesn't make it a bad play just because it didn't fit a particular style. |
Isn't this why we love the game? (that or the chance to make money, I forget which)
| 1988 TR wrote: |
My point is for the style he is going for, top 2 pair is definitely a playable hand on the flop vs a short stack. |
Isn't this what its all about? Pooch plays the hand, hoping for this flop (well, maybe not the 6 ), he cant fold when it hits.
The only problem I have here, is the turn and river betting (or lack thereof), but others (including Pooch himself) have dealt with that already.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 6:49 pm GMT by 1988 TR
| screwthepooch wrote: | I know I may regret asking this question, but what would you do in this circumstance?
You get AA on the button and everyone calls the $2 bet. You raise to $10 and get 2 callers (the same two in the hand we are all discussing from earlier).
Flop comes J,6,2
First guy bets $10, short-stack pushes $80.
Do you really fold now? You have more information than the previously discussed hand, right? 2 callers who are willing to call an $8 raise. They could have pocket overpairs, AJ, AK or flush draw with those high cards. You can't put them on J6 or J2 or 62 really.
So, I ask, do you really fold AA because of a short-stack $80 push? I wouldn't fold here and this hand isn't even as good as the Top two pair I had in the original example. |
I think we all know my answer here, lol!!!
People can say anything they want - In practice, I would love to see them routinely fold AA here.... If they do, please play at my table!! You will get run the f over.
It is a way worse hand than the J6 after the flop, but many here will have trouble folding it. Why??? Because it is listed in the first chart of any ranking of Hold Em hands!!!
OK, now that I have said that, everyone go ahead and post that you would lay down your AA here.... 
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:14 pm GMT by Dave B
I can tell you that I have laid down AA many times in similar situations, some cost me the pot, many more saved me bets.
At the same time, I wouldnt limp w/ AA and let that many see a flop.
In limit, when I play live 8/16, 10/20 or 15/30, the table usually has 3-4 tight players and some maniacs. If I bet, a maniac raises and a tight player 3 bets, my As hit the muck. 9/10 times the tight player has 2 pair or a set. Occasionally, he will just have TPTK, but they are usually too weary of my hand to do that without a big hand. It is tough to do, but you have to if you want to win.
There are many ways to play poker. I am not going to critize anyone if their style works. But when I hear people complain about playing like some pros on TV (who make some BIG laydowns BTW too-ones that rookies never do) and then getting outdrawn, I dont have a lot of sympathy.
There are awesome players that I run into live, some are maniacs, some are rocks, they always stack chips. But they know how to pick spots, where to push and when to laydown.
Myself, if I was 2nd to act facing a $10 raise, I probably raise big, prehaps all in, but facing an all in before I act, I dont like it. If it feels bad, it likely is.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 7:14 pm GMT by TheSalche
for the record i said i would have trouble finding the fold button ...
and yes i would lay down my AA there, the set is so obvious 
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 9:53 pm GMT by Fat Tony
1988 TR: what gave you the idea that you are God's gift to poker? is there some reason you feel it necessary to talk down to people? the fact that you play higher limits (or claim to) doesn't make you more knowledgeable or a better player. all it means is you have more money. why did you drop scanX's name in this thread by the way? what exactly does he have to do with this thread? as far as i can tell, you did it simply because you two have apparently had some issues in the past and you saw an opportunity to get a cheap shot in. do us all a favor next time and don't bother.........it was uncalled for.
edit: when you act like everyone is beneath you nobody will pay attention to what you have to say and that would be a shame because you do have some good things to say.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:18 pm GMT by screwthepooch
| Dave B wrote: |
At the same time, I wouldnt limp w/ AA and let that many see a flop.
|
You are calling a raise to 10 limping? How about you raise to 15 and still get two callers? What would you raise the bet to? Enought to drive absolutely everyone out? Personally I would raise to about 15 at 1/2 $200 and at this particular table, you still would probably get 2 callers. what's funny is you say that you wouldn't let that many see a flop...that's only 2 other people. Is your goal to never see any callers? You can't always choose how many will call your bet...and if you get 2 callers in the situation described and you fold to the short-stack all-in, then I would definitely say you're playing way too tight. I mean, really the irony is that you seem to be saying on the one hand that i'm crappy for playing J6 suited, but when you get the "rock" hand that you are looking for, you claim to be willing to fold it at the first sign of aggression.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:20 pm GMT by Dave B
This is exactly how I make my money, people overvaluing hands and not believing that someone might actually have a bigger hand. This guy just couldnt let his set go....could you? I can play even all night, then hit one of these and sleep fat and happy.
5/10 I had only been playing for 20 minutes, no solid reads, I completely expected a split pot.
Hello cby_player,
You have recently requested your transcript of the game number 2519758958.
***** Hand History for Game 2519758958 *****
5/10 Texas Hold'em Game Table (Limit) - Thu Aug 11 23:00:17 EDT 2005
Table Blue devils (Real Money) -- Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: Manabond ( $273)
Seat 2: RollingStorm ( $167)
Seat 3: cby_player ( $266)
Seat 4: jhanchey ( $270)
Seat 5: RedHotTomale ( $120)
Seat 6: Luis_Firpo ( $238)
Seat 7: UberPlaya ( $250)
Seat 8: lobo_fan_1 ( $463)
Seat 9: igottacit ( $192.33)
Seat 10: jimmyvn ( $50)
jimmyvn posts small blind (2)
Manabond posts big blind (5)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to cby_player  
RollingStorm folds.
cby_player calls (5)
jhanchey calls (5)
cby_player: interesting
RedHotTomale folds.
Luis_Firpo folds.
lobo_fan_1 folds.
igottacit folds.
jimmyvn raises (8) to 10
Manabond folds.
cby_player calls (5)
jhanchey calls (5)
** Dealing Flop ** :   
jimmyvn bets (5)
cby_player calls (5)
jhanchey raises (10) to 10
jimmyvn raises (10) to 15
cby_player calls (10)
jhanchey raises (10) to 20
jimmyvn calls (5)
cby_player calls (5)
** Dealing Turn ** : 
jimmyvn checks.
cby_player checks.
jhanchey bets (10)
jimmyvn raises (20) to 20
jimmyvn is all-In.
cby_player raises (30) to 30
jhanchey raises (30) to 40
cby_player calls (10)
Creating Main Pot with $152 with jimmyvn
** Dealing River ** : 
cby_player bets (10)
jhanchey raises (20) to 20
cby_player raises (20) to 30
jhanchey raises (20) to 40
cby_player calls (10)
** Summary **
Main Pot: $152 | Side Pot 1: $120 | Rake: $3
Board:
Manabond balance $268, lost $5 (folded)
RollingStorm balance $167, didn't bet (folded)
cby_player balance $428, bet $110, collected $272, net +$162 a straight eight to queen --
jhanchey balance $160, lost $110   three of a kind tens --
RedHotTomale balance $120, didn't bet (folded)
Luis_Firpo balance $238, didn't bet (folded)
UberPlaya balance $250, sits out
lobo_fan_1 balance $463, didn't bet (folded)
igottacit balance $192.33, didn't bet (folded)
jimmyvn balance $0, lost $50  a pair of jacks --
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:30 pm GMT by screwthepooch
| Fat Tony wrote: | 1988 TR: what gave you the idea that you are God's gift to poker? is there some reason you feel it necessary to talk down to people? the fact that you play higher limits (or claim to) doesn't make you more knowledgeable or a better player. all it means is you have more money. why did you drop scanX's name in this thread by the way? what exactly does he have to do with this thread? as far as i can tell, you did it simply because you two have apparently had some issues in the past and you saw an opportunity to get a cheap shot in. do us all a favor next time and don't bother.........it was uncalled for.
edit: when you act like everyone is beneath you nobody will pay attention to what you have to say and that would be a shame because you do have some good things to say. |
This thread is called "advanced theory & hand analysis", is it not? 1988 TR is merely presenting a counter way of playing that seems to rock the core beliefs of many on this board. In my opinion that is a good thing! I can vouch for his play and it is first rate. He has an uncanny way of analyzing the elements of a hand based on type of players, position, pot odds, and his cards that make him a VERY profitable player. If anyone on this thread wishes to move up to a higher limit, they would do well to get a read on what he posts because it is very relevant to the way hands play at those types of tables.
In regard to his mention of ScanX, I think it was a valid dig at a poster whose main input seems to be "How could you have been in that hand?" If all the posters here only wanna player QQ and above, then there's not really much to discuss is there?
ScrewThePooch
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 10:41 pm GMT by screwthepooch
Dave,
Congrats on making a call UTG that some on this board would supposedly never make because it is not a good enough starting hand in that position. Furthermore, congrats for winning a hand in which you get a PERFECT flop. Meanwhile the rest of us will figure out how to play actual poker in the other 99% of the circumstances where we do not flop the nuts. I think this thread should be re-named...."HOW TO PLAY THE NUTS.."DON'T FOLD IT". COLLECT THE POT AND GO TO BED HAPPY.
Meanwhile, if the flop had come 10,9,9 and turned and rivered rags, you'd have lost the pot unless you want to claim that you would have folded to the aggressor. And if you would have folded, then you are way too tight. So again, the choice according to your methodology is to wait for the ABSOLUTE nuts...or fold like an origami crane.
ScrewThePooch
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:14 pm GMT by Fat Tony
| screwthepooch wrote: | This thread is called "advanced theory & hand analysis", is it not? 1988 TR is merely presenting a counter way of playing that seems to rock the core beliefs of many on this board. In my opinion that is a good thing! I can vouch for his play and it is first rate. He has an uncanny way of analyzing the elements of a hand based on type of players, position, pot odds, and his cards that make him a VERY profitable player. If anyone on this thread wishes to move up to a higher limit, they would do well to get a read on what he posts because it is very relevant to the way hands play at those types of tables.
In regard to his mention of ScanX, I think it was a valid dig at a poster whose main input seems to be "How could you have been in that hand?" If all the posters here only wanna player QQ and above, then there's not really much to discuss is there?
ScrewThePooch |
1. my post was addressed to someone other than yourself so how about minding your own business.
2. i don't really care that someone's poker beliefs are contrary to the the majority of the board, the point is he was being a d!ck about it and i am far from the only one who thinks so. you two are obviously friends, but he's a big boy and can defend himself without you running to defend him, especially since your bias is very clear.
3. scanX was not involved in this conversation at all so it was NOT a valid dig.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:25 pm GMT by Dave B
Actually, do you think he would have capped if I went after him instead of letting the all in commit his chips as I slowplayed?
Also, I might raise once w/ trip 9s, but no way I cap the flop turn and river.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:40 pm GMT by 1988 TR
| Dave B wrote: | This is exactly how I make my money, people overvaluing hands and not believing that someone might actually have a bigger hand. This guy just couldnt let his set go....could you? I can play even all night, then hit one of these and sleep fat and happy.
5/10 I had only been playing for 20 minutes, no solid reads, I completely expected a split pot.
|
? What is the point?
I guess the pros suck too. Tell John how bad he is for playing his 1 pair the exact same way.......
FullTiltPoker Game #178371630: Table Mary Ann (6 max) - $50/$100 - Limit Hold'em - 1:36:37 ET - 2005/08/08
Seat 2: AAAAQ ($5,278)
Seat 3: Tryangle ($5,751)
Seat 4: John DAgostino ($1,419)
Seat 6: James Jamerson ($2,405)
James Jamerson posts the small blind of $25
AAAAQ posts the big blind of $50
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to AAAAQ 
Tryangle folds
John DAgostino raises to $100
James Jamerson folds
AAAAQ calls $50
*** FLOP ***  
AAAAQ checks
John DAgostino bets $50
AAAAQ calls $50
*** TURN ***
AAAAQ checks
John DAgostino bets $100
AAAAQ raises to $200
John DAgostino calls $100
*** RIVER *** 
AAAAQ bets $100
John DAgostino calls $100
*** SHOW DOWN ***
AAAAQ shows (two pair, Jacks and Fives)
John DAgostino mucks
AAAAQ wins the pot ($923) with two pair, Jacks and Fives
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $925 | Rake $2
Board:
Seat 2: AAAAQ (big blind) showed and won ($923) with two pair, Jacks and Fives
Seat 3: Tryangle didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: John DAgostino (button) mucked   - a pair of Aces
Seat 6: James Jamerson (small blind) folded before the Flop
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:43 pm GMT by 1988 TR
| Fat Tony wrote: | | screwthepooch wrote: | This thread is called "advanced theory & hand analysis", is it not? 1988 TR is merely presenting a counter way of playing that seems to rock the core beliefs of many on this board. In my opinion that is a good thing! I can vouch for his play and it is first rate. He has an uncanny way of analyzing the elements of a hand based on type of players, position, pot odds, and his cards that make him a VERY profitable player. If anyone on this thread wishes to move up to a higher limit, they would do well to get a read on what he posts because it is very relevant to the way hands play at those types of tables.
In regard to his mention of ScanX, I think it was a valid dig at a poster whose main input seems to be "How could you have been in that hand?" If all the posters here only wanna player QQ and above, then there's not really much to discuss is there?
ScrewThePooch |
1. my post was addressed to someone other than yourself so how about minding your own business.
2. i don't really care that someone's poker beliefs are contrary to the the majority of the board, the point is he was being a d!ck about it and i am far from the only one who thinks so. you two are obviously friends, but he's a big boy and can defend himself without you running to defend him, especially since your bias is very clear.
3. scanX was not involved in this conversation at all so it was NOT a valid dig. |
1) hey forum nazi - No one is addressing you here, so not sure what your business is... Other than being a moderator, why do you feel like you need to show me abuse because I have diff opinions than other here?
2) Others are a d!ick here also on this thread telling him how bad he played the hand. I tell them how bad I think their beliefs are, but I'm the d!ck? OK
3) Scan X is a d!ck everytime I see him post - I think it rubs off on others..
Do me a favor and re-read everyone of my posts in this thread. No where do I take a shot at any poster. I will make fun of people vehemently disagreeing that have no experience in this type of game. I simply don't value their opinion - Because they have no experience to back it up.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:51 pm GMT by 1988 TR
| Dave B wrote: | Actually, do you think he would have capped if I went after him instead of letting the all in commit his chips as I slowplayed?
Also, I might raise once w/ trip 9s, but no way I cap the flop turn and river. |
Of course you wouldn't cap the turn and river - That guy was just plain bad in your post.
The question you posed was would you let the hand go. Of course I wouldn't!!! Especially in fixed limit. You wouldn't either. It would take some convincing, but at some point you would just call him down. I don't think you would just fold the set.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:53 pm GMT by Fat Tony
every post on this forum is my business. there has been a complaint made in your case and we can resolve it the easy or the hard way....your choice. (no, it was NOT made by scanX)
get this thru your thick skull: i don't give a crap that your opinion is different.....post away. just be respectful of other posters. nobody is persecuting you because you hold a differing opinion no matter how hard you try to make it sound that way. nobody is trying to restict your views in any way, i am just telling you to cut out the personal attacks.
if any others are out of line they will be dealt with, but you clearly have issues with scanX that are quite obviously clouding your judgement. try worrying a bit less about what he does and worry about what you do.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:53 pm GMT by 1988 TR
John played the hand with AA ok I just posted above - He thought he might be beat & just called down.
He could have lost a lot more like the guy in the next post :
FullTiltPoker Game #178348370: Table Mary Ann (6 max) - $50/$100 - Limit Hold'em - 1:12:36 ET - 2005/08/08
Seat 1: KeyLimePie ($360.50)
Seat 2: AAAAQ ($3,263)
Seat 3: Tryangle ($5,407)
Seat 4: John DAgostino ($2,680)
Seat 5: Arhimedes ($2,308)
Seat 6: James Jamerson ($2,848)
theoz1 (Observer): new***
Arhimedes posts the small blind of $25
James Jamerson posts the big blind of $50
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to AAAAQ  
KeyLimePie folds
AAAAQ raises to $100
James Jamerson: james jamerson, deceased motown bassist
Tryangle folds
John DAgostino raises to $150
Arhimedes calls $125
James Jamerson folds
AAAAQ calls $50
earvinarp (Observer): no, he's hanging
*** FLOP ***  
Arhimedes checks
AAAAQ bets $50
John DAgostino raises to $100
Arhimedes raises to $150
AAAAQ raises to $200
John DAgostino folds
Arhimedes calls $50
*** TURN *** 
Arhimedes checks
AAAAQ bets $100
Arhimedes calls $100
*** RIVER ***
Arhimedes checks
AAAAQ bets $100
Arhimedes raises to $200
AAAAQ raises to $300
Arhimedes calls $100
*** SHOW DOWN ***
AAAAQ shows (three of a kind, Sevens)
Arhimedes mucks
AAAAQ wins the pot ($1,797) with three of a kind, Sevens
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $1,800 | Rake $3
Board:
Seat 1: KeyLimePie didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: AAAAQ showed and won ($1,797) with three of a kind, Sevens
Seat 3: Tryangle didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: John DAgostino (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 5: Arhimedes (small blind) mucked  - two pair, Aces and Sevens
Seat 6: James Jamerson (big blind) folded before the Flop
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:54 pm GMT by Dave B
I have been a dick before and I will be again, but I dont see how any of my comments were negative. I just said I didnt like the play. When asked to elaborate or when I was critized for being brief, I explained my rational.
I think EVERYONE would admit that seeing 1 hand from anyone is hardly indicitive of someone's overall style.
At the heart of my comments was that most players who play J6 do it poorly and lose. They see Gus on TV catch some cards and make a million w/ 52. They start playing a favorite hand like 52 and only remember the $200 pots, not the 20 $15 losses.
Like I said before, if you can play J6 and win, great. Most will lose money over time.
Posted Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:55 pm GMT by 1988 TR
| Fat Tony wrote: | every post on this forum is my business. there has been a complaint made in your case and we can resolve it the easy or the hard way....your choice. (no, it was NOT made by scanX)
get this thru your thick skull: i don't give a crap that your opinion is different.....post away. just be respectful of other posters. nobody is persecuting you because you hold a differing opinion no matter how hard you try to make it sound that way.
if any others are out of line they will be dealt with, but you clearly have issues with scanX that are quite obviously clouding your judgement. try worrying a bit less about what he does and worry about what you do. |
How about this tough guy.
Please post what I said that is offending you so greatly & I will refrain from posting in that manner again.
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:01 am GMT by 1988 TR
| Dave B wrote: | I have been a dick before and I will be again, but I dont see how any of my comments were negative. I just said I didnt like the play. When asked to elaborate or when I was critized for being brief, I explained my rational.
|
Ditto - Again - Please read my posts on this thread - The only insult I have slung was microlimit players acting like they know the answers to a higher stakes no limit game.
I would even question your judgement - Only because you are more of a limit player.
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:03 am GMT by Fat Tony
making stupid comments towards me are only going to result in further conflict, i have been very nice about this. my patience is starting to wear thin however.
i'm going to make this real easy for you to understand: post whatever you want as far as poker goes, just don't post negative things directed at other posters.
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:17 am GMT by 1988 TR
| Fat Tony wrote: | making stupid comments towards me are only going to result in further conflict, i have been very nice about this. my patience is starting to wear thin however.
i'm going to make this real easy for you to understand: post whatever you want as far as poker goes, just don't post negative things directed at other posters. |
I need help here - Please post what is offensive - I am not following what the problem is.
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:28 am GMT by 1988 TR
Tell you what Tony.
About a week ago I tried to delete my account but couldn't see that there was a way for me to do it.
If you want to save me the trouble, please delete my account for me.
Thanks
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:30 am GMT by Skribbles
How about a simple solution?
Create a High Stakes only section with exclusive members such as 1988, Scott111.... and Screwthepooch. That way use micro-limit players (probably 95% of the forum community) won't waste their precious time with our opinions.
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:23 am GMT by TheSalche
| 1988 TR wrote: | And this is why I criticize - Posts like this are just plain worthless - You must all be taking notes from Scan-X.
| Dave B wrote: | | I think you played the entire hand rather poorly. |
| Skribbles wrote: | | I don't like this hand at all. |
| Soup_dog wrote: | | Good grief! It's a train wreck! |
Meanwhile if the opponent had AJ and a flush draw, you would all be praising him.
"Nice Play"
"Yes, you have to call here. You are getting +EV because of the draw hands."
Etc.
Get out of the box you have put yourself in and consider the hand.
|
i dont know ... maybe THERE
listen, ive found a lot of your posts quite interesting, a show a side of poker that i enjoy seeing and learning about .. how to be the LAGish bully and take down a lot of pots and make a decent amount, i say this in all honesty
the thing is, many of us here at these low stakes cant play like that because we simply cant run over calling stations because they call down to the river with middle pair ... the only way to play against players like this is to make sure when you play against them, you're hold AK, etc, and that is what makes the low limits game profitable in the long run
all im saying is that yes most of us play ABC poker, but please don't go around criticizing how tight we play when the type of games we play require tight play ... and if you want to tell us to think out of the box, you can do it in a lot nicer and more subtle fashion (like howzit does)
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 4:28 am GMT by Muck
Wow this thread grew jack and the beanstalk style
I must admit I skipped a coule of the middle pages so I’m sorry if this has been covered already.
I can see why the tension has come up here. Players with experience and success can also have very diverse styles.
I think it was Doyle Brunson who said if someone offered him 10/1 on a coin toss for everything he owned no less, he’d say okay. Because “that’s a good bet and I have the confidence that I could make it all back again if I lost”.
The bets a good one but I don’t think every poker player would take it. IMHO something’s come down to the person and factors outside the bet.
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 9:15 am GMT by Soup_dog
I guess I just dont understand all of this bickering. He asked us our opinions about how he played his hand. We provided it and get berated for it. Heck I was called a pussy at one point. The funny thing is... by the end of all this discussion I actual understand and agree (to a point) with his argument.
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 9:56 am GMT by screwthepooch
I think I know what the problem is. Most on this forum are playing poker 101 and some of us actually are trying to move on to advanced theory...
Seriously, it seems that every response is about how someone would have folded that hand quicker than you can say "I'm a sissy girl". I can see that the opinion is valid in many cases when you're facing pre-flop raises, or are out of position, but my God people, the $2 call in a no-limit game with J6 suited when on the button is hardly controversial.
What I was looking for in my post was some analysis of the decision post-flop. Perhaps I should have specified that, but was under the assumption that most people could see why I might call $2 in that situation.
The problem here might be that many of the responses were made by people who don't play No/Limit at a $200 table???
Everyone wanted me to respect the play of the small-stack so much, but check out this example of how someone who is short-stacked wants to spend their remaining $60. And, this is relatively typical of the play at these tables:
FullTiltPoker Game #181997249: Table Sunrise (6 max) - $1/$2 - No Limit Hold'em - 20:12:46 ET - 2005/08/11
Seat 1: brad_222 ($63.05)
Seat 2: dmboak ($179.60)
Seat 3: poker8792 ($152.60)
Seat 4: upaymybills ($249)
Seat 5: Ghostbuster ($200.10)
Seat 6: pogiolithis ($302.40)
pogiolithis posts the small blind of $1
brad_222 posts the big blind of $2
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to upaymybills
dmboak folds
poker8792 raises to $7
upaymybills folds
Ghostbuster folds
pogiolithis calls $6
brad_222 calls $5
*** FLOP ***  
pogiolithis checks
brad_222 bets $11
poker8792 raises to $22
pogiolithis folds
brad_222 calls $11
*** TURN *** 
brad_222 checks
poker8792 bets $34.05
brad_222 calls $34.05, and is all in
poker8792 shows
brad_222 shows 
*** RIVER ***
poker8792 shows three of a kind, Nines
brad_222 shows a pair of Aces
poker8792 wins the pot ($130.10) with three of a kind, Nines
brad_222 is sitting out
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $133.10 | Rake $3
Board:
Seat 1: brad_222 (big blind) showed and lost with a pair of Aces
Seat 2: dmboak didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: poker8792 showed and won ($130.10) with three of a kind, Nines
Seat 4: upaymybills didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: Ghostbuster (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: pogiolithis (small blind) folded on the Flop
Granted, the small-stack didn't just go all-in pre-flop, but he has Ace-freakin' deuce and can't wait to defend it with $60. Now if I flop 2 pair in this situation against him, then I'm taking his money down. So, just because in my original hand, I lost money doesn't make it the wrong play. However, I would definitely admit that I played badly on the turn and river.
ScrewThePooch
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:18 am GMT by mangothebear
This argument is kinda hilarious to me.
screwthepooch:
I don't understand exactly what you wanted when you started this thread. You should have specified that you wanted reassurance from people that you played it right and just got unlucky and that you DID NOT want people to criticize your play.
You gotta realize that once you post a hand up and ask for opinions, you can't always control the opinions people get. Don't get so defensive when people are giving their honest opinion and tell you something you don't want to hear. If you're going to be like that, don't post in the first place. It's like the fat girl asking her bf if the pants make her look fat. Well, we're not here to give people ego massages.
1988 TR:
The problem people have with your posts is not one specific insult you direct at someone (although you did a few of those) but the arrogance and condescension you show when you dismiss everyone elses opinion. These forums are great because you get to hear a lot of different opinions which helps people see things in a way they wouldn't have on their own. No one has any problem with your opinion, which might be different from the way other people play that hand, but to pass it off as the only opinion that has any worth pisses people off. This is what Fat Tony was reprimanding you for and I don't think you should blow it out of proportion.
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:24 am GMT by Muck
| screwthepooch wrote: |
Seriously, it seems that every response is about how someone would have folded that hand quicker than you can say "I'm a sissy girl".
|
Wouldn’t it be less trollish to go with something like
| Quote: |
…quicker than you can say “I don’t have the skill to play these trouble hands”
|
That’s still pretty biting without directly attacking a players maculinety based on their opens
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:24 am GMT by screwthepooch
Here are a couple more examples of why play is different at these tables:
FullTiltPoker Game #182000276: Table Sunrise (6 max) - $1/$2 - No Limit Hold'em - 20:15:53 ET - 2005/08/11
Seat 1: brad_222 ($49)
Seat 2: dmboak ($186.80)
Seat 3: poker8792 ($216.65)
Seat 4: upaymybills ($258.65)
Seat 5: Ghostbuster ($200)
Seat 6: pogiolithis ($292.10)
upaymybills posts the small blind of $1
Ghostbuster posts the big blind of $2
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to upaymybills
pogiolithis folds
brad_222 folds
dmboak calls $2
poker8792 raises to $9
upaymybills folds
Ghostbuster calls $7
dmboak folds
*** FLOP *** 
Ghostbuster checks
poker8792 bets $21
Ghostbuster calls $21
*** TURN *** 
Ghostbuster checks
poker8792 checks
*** RIVER *** 
Ghostbuster bets $63
poker8792 calls $63
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Ghostbuster shows   (a straight, Five high)
poker8792 mucks
Ghostbuster wins the pot ($186) with a straight, Five high
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $189 | Rake $3
Board:
Seat 1: brad_222 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: dmboak folded before the Flop
Seat 3: poker8792 (button) mucked - two pair, Aces and Eights
Seat 4: upaymybills (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: Ghostbuster (big blind) showed and won ($186) with a straight, Five high
Seat 6: pogiolithis didn't bet (folded)
=========================
Here's another one:
FullTiltPoker Game #182010859: Table Sunrise (6 max) - $1/$2 - No Limit Hold'em - 20:26:50 ET - 2005/08/11
Seat 1: brad_222 ($45.20)
Seat 2: squisz ($201)
Seat 3: poker8792 ($130.50)
Seat 4: upaymybills ($282.90)
Seat 5: Ghostbuster ($287)
Seat 6: pogiolithis ($254.05)
poker8792 posts the small blind of $1
upaymybills posts the big blind of $2
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to upaymybills
Ghostbuster folds
pogiolithis raises to $10
brad_222 calls $10
squisz folds
poker8792 folds
upaymybills raises to $30
pogiolithis calls $20
brad_222 calls $20
*** FLOP *** 
upaymybills checks
pogiolithis checks
brad_222 bets $15.20, and is all in
upaymybills calls $15.20
pogiolithis folds
brad_222 shows  
upaymybills shows
*** TURN ***
*** RIVER ***
brad_222 shows a pair of Eights
upaymybills shows two pair, Kings and Eights
upaymybills wins the pot ($118.40) with two pair, Kings and Eights
brad_222 adds $50
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $121.40 | Rake $3
Board:
Seat 1: brad_222 showed and lost with a pair of Eights
Seat 2: squisz (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: poker8792 (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 4: upaymybills (big blind) showed and won ($118.40) with two pair, Kings and Eights
Seat 5: Ghostbuster didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: pogiolithis folded on the Flop
I suppose I should have folded when he threw his last $15 out there because the Ace was showing?
One last example that should show that you can't tighten up your sphincter too much or you'll get run over...I mean, what if you were dealt pocket Aces and had the following two idiots betting this way?:
FullTiltPoker Game #182063000: Table Sunrise (6 max) - $1/$2 - No Limit Hold'em - 21:19:07 ET - 2005/08/11
Seat 1: yourwifehatesu ($30.05)
Seat 2: SavannahAce ($71.95)
Seat 3: ELLADAVILLE ($71)
Seat 4: upaymybills ($424.45)
Seat 5: Ghostbuster ($285.30)
Seat 6: pogiolithis ($120.45)
ELLADAVILLE posts the small blind of $1
upaymybills posts the big blind of $2
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to upaymybills
Ghostbuster calls $2
pogiolithis calls $2
yourwifehatesu calls $2
SavannahAce calls $2
ELLADAVILLE folds
upaymybills checks
*** FLOP *** 
Adderdance (Observer): where are these Ring games?>
upaymybills checks
Ghostbuster bets $11
Adderdance (Observer): Where are these Rings games.. there tlaking about?
pogiolithis raises to $22
yourwifehatesu folds
SavannahAce folds
upaymybills folds
Ghostbuster raises to $100
pogiolithis raises to $118.45, and is all in
Ghostbuster calls $18.45
pogiolithis shows
Ghostbuster shows
*** TURN ***
*** RIVER ***
pogiolithis shows two pair, Fives and Fours
Ghostbuster shows two pair, Nines and Fours
Ghostbuster wins the pot ($244.90) with two pair, Nines and Fours
pogiolithis is sitting out
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $247.90 | Rake $3
Board:
Seat 1: yourwifehatesu folded on the Flop
Seat 2: SavannahAce (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 3: ELLADAVILLE (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 4: upaymybills (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 5: Ghostbuster showed and won ($244.90) with two pair, Nines and Fours
Seat 6: pogiolithis showed and lost with two pair, Fives and Fours
Point is that you really have to adjust your play at these types of tables and not always run and hide at the first sign of aggression when you have a good hand.
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:27 am GMT by screwthepooch
| Muck wrote: | | screwthepooch wrote: |
Seriously, it seems that every response is about how someone would have folded that hand quicker than you can say "I'm a sissy girl".
|
Wouldn’t it be less trollish to go with something like
| Quote: |
…quicker than you can say “I don’t have the skill to play these trouble hands”
|
That’s still pretty biting without directly attacking a players maculinety based on their opens |
Next you'll be telling me that you don't want me to blow my cigarette smoke in your direction at the poker table...sheesh! LOL. I suppose I could learn to tone it down a bit
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:34 am GMT by Skribbles
Lets see...
Hand #1 the guy called $21 on a gutshot straight. Great play. He was getting a solid 2:1 from the pot with an 11:1 draw.
An awful call and the guy got very lucky.
Hand #2: No one would lay down 2nd pair to a $15 bet into a $100 pot.
Simply a no-brainer.
Hand #3: Guy liked his 2nd pair and his flush draw. Some people will push with it some won't.
Interesting one, could go either way.
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:38 am GMT by suitedaces84
| screwthepooch wrote: | | I suppose I should have folded when he threw his last $15 out there because the Ace was showing? |
There's a big difference between getting 7:1 and 1.1:1 on your call. It's very debatable (and very player dependent) whether a $80 raise into a $16 pot means top two is no good 55% of the time. But you gotta figure your kings are good at least 12% of the time (keep in mind you'll spike your set 8% of the time), so to fold here you'd have to be over 95% sure you're beat. I don't think anyone on here would agrue that. But nice try.
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:42 am GMT by Dave B
I have played these tables many times, not at full tilt, but same 6 handed game at Party.
BTW-these hands prove my point.
1) One guy makes pot bet, player calls to get big payday. The guy that bets big on the river likely has a str8 or 8, AQ call isnt horrible, but he could have laid down
2) No, you cant fold a $90 pot to a $17 all in. If he bet $720 (8xpot) like your 2 initial 2 pair example and the ace isnt on the board, I make lay down my overpair
3) Q9 makes the big raise, the player w/ the 2nd pair should make an easy laydown
Throw out #2, 1&3 are both hands where players made calls when everything was saying that they were beat. When someone bets 8x pot, my 2 pair (from initial example) shinks pretty fast, and I lay down. I may believe I have the winner, I just dont want to risk that much to find out.
No one got run over in these hands, the better hand made a bet and was never pushed back.
I posted an example a while ago from a NL $200 (blinds 1/2). I had J5 in late position, 2 limped and I raised to $10. Button called, all others folded. Flop J 10 5 ( or something like that) I checked, button bet pot and I went all in. I wondered if I should have raised less or slowplayed more since he immediately folded. We had a health discussion.
My point is I know these games, and styles might be different, but I have no problems laying down winners if the risk/reward isnt worth it. I like to put my chips to work when I feel like I have an advantange, I dont like taking uncalculated risks.
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:44 am GMT by screwthepooch
| suitedaces84 wrote: | | screwthepooch wrote: | | I suppose I should have folded when he threw his last $15 out there because the Ace was showing? |
There's a big difference between getting 7:1 and 1.1:1 on your call. It's very debatable (and very player dependent) whether a $80 raise into a $16 pot means top two is no good 55% of the time. But you gotta figure your kings are good at least 12% of the time (keep in mind you'll spike your set 8% of the time), so to fold here you'd have to be over 95% sure you're beat. I don't think anyone on here would agrue that. But nice try. |
My comment was sarcastic of course...i doubt anyone would have folded there, but my illustration of the hands is to show that you can't run and hide just because the short-stack pushes all-in...not when you have a solid hand (top two pair). I can see if I had KJ in the original hand (107 pages ago), then yes, I would have folded. It would have been a tough fold, but I have learned that top pair (even with top kicker) should RARELY call an all-in. Almost every time I've done that, I've been on the losing end. (especially in tournaments). There are of course exceptions such as when you have AK and can put the player on AQ or similar based on pre-flop action and the flop comes K,7,2). But, in that case it's more likely to be bet, raise, re-raise and not just an all-in right away.
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:51 am GMT by Skribbles
| screwthepooch wrote: |
My comment was sarcastic of course...i doubt anyone would have folded there, but my illustration of the hands is to show that you can't run and hide just because the short-stack pushes all-in...not when you have a solid hand (top two pair). |
You "illustration" of short stacks pushing is off I think. In the original hand the short-stack pushes all-in which is 4x the pot. In the KK w/ an Ace on the board, his all-in is 1/6th of the pot. Huge difference.
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 11:01 am GMT by Loonbat
Moderators:
I request this thread be closed. It's had de-evolved into a pissing contest of differing views. I see no other arguments can be stated which add any value to this specific hand "discussion".
Let's agree to disagree and start showing some mutual f*cking respect. For me, all opinions are valued, even if I don't agree with them.
-Loon
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 11:06 am GMT by mangothebear
I don't see a problem with the current discussions.
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 11:09 am GMT by screwthepooch
| Skribbles wrote: | | screwthepooch wrote: |
My comment was sarcastic of course...i doubt anyone would have folded there, but my illustration of the hands is to show that you can't run and hide just because the short-stack pushes all-in...not when you have a solid hand (top two pair). |
You "illustration" of short stacks pushing is off I think. In the original hand the short-stack pushes all-in which is 4x the pot. In the KK w/ an Ace on the board, his all-in is 1/6th of the pot. Huge difference. |
Either you are just missing the point, or are just being obtuse. I'm not attempting to show you one hand that illustrates the same exact situation as the original hand. What I'm showing is the type of play that makes it profitable to call an all-in such as the one in the initial hand. While in that example, the player actually had a hand, it is in my experience that they usually do not have 2 pair beat and are pushing with over-pair, flush draw, top pair or sometimes they are actually on an out and out bluff because they have given up respecting the remaining chips in front of them. In the latest examples I showed how bad some of the plays are and how much they are willing to bet or call with terrible hands, so what I'm saying is that I'm not going to be fearful when I have a decent hand like top two pair. And as I've emphasized in my last posts, what I would like more analysis of is my decision to just call or possibly raise all-in and furthermore the turn and river action. In my opinion, the part that made the hand interesting wasn't that he pushed all-in and I called, but that the maniac called. That's what really made the hand interesting in my opinion.
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 11:10 am GMT by Soup_dog
LOL I felt like the discussion was actually starting to get civil.
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 11:20 am GMT by Dave B
I am leaving for a weekend of poker, booze, blackjack, booze and buffets.....but in closing, this post reminds me of a story.
I think that it was on Howard Lederer's daily journal of his 2004 WSOP that this story came from, but I dont recall for sure. He was at table with Phil Ivey. Phil had just made a massive bet against a big pot after a scare card hit. Howard saw him in the hall shortly after during a break and made a comment like "I hope you dont try and pull that move on me". Phil's classic retort while fighting back a grin was "You get chips your way, I will get mine my way".
Both great players, both win, both very different, both right.
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 11:20 am GMT by mangothebear
screwthepooch:
I gotta completely disagree with you. Because the two situations are so different, you citing the KK example does absolutely nothing for your argument.
Basically, all you are saying is that there are bad plays going on at your table. Ok, I understand that. There are bad plays made at any table at any given buy in. What you have to observe is who is making the bad plays, what is in the current pot, and how much it costs to play it out.
I have read somewhere that pot odds can be approximated in reverse for making calls on bluffs.
In your original hand, the guy made a 5x the pot reraise on the flop bet. Since it was a limped pot, its hard to see this as an overpair. Now the only thing you CAN beat is two smaller pairs. Your pot odds are only slightly over 50/50 - something like 60/40. So the question is, is this guy moving all in with something worse than top two pair 40% of the time?? Since he's not THAT short stacked, I would err on the side of caution (I have nothing invested in this pot) and lay it down. If I had a read on this player, and have seen him make this move with something like top pair or a draw, this would inch me closer to calling this.
Its not an easy laydown by any means, but lacking any kind of read, I would think all I can beat in this situation is a bluff (because moving all in here with top pair IS a bluff).
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 11:38 am GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
I think the argument about stakes is irrelevant, because Poker is Poker and odds are odds regardless of how much each bet is. 6-Handed NL ring games are specific situations that you have to adjust to, and in this case I think it was an example of decent play that ran into a big hand from a short stack.
Pre-Flop
Not sure why anyone has a problem with limping in on the button with this hand. If people want to let you in for cheap, then go ahead and do it, especially if you believe you can control the action on the hand. Look, everyone knows J6s isn't the best hand, but Poker is so situational--I wouldn't play it at a 10-seat limit game, but in 6-handed NL, I don't see any problem with limping in with a hand like this.
Flop
If you believe you have the best hand here, I prefer re-raising all-in to just flat-calling. If robbery has a hand like a pair of jacks with a higher kicker, you don't want to give him the chance to catch--that puts him to a much tougher decision, and if he's coming from behind, then you have the better of the situation. If this were a tournament, I would agree with you calling the all-in and checking it down with him to eliminate the short stack, but in a cash game, with a vulnerable hand like two pair, I would prefer coming over the top to get the play down to heads-up. You would still lose the showdown, but I don't think you're getting away from top 2 pair--if you wouldn't lay down aces here you can't lay down top 2. And since I'd prefer re-raising with aces, I prefer re-raising with top 2 as well.
Turn/River
I'd definitely put in a bet or two here. He obviously has a hand he wants to show down without risking any more money. It's not a tournament, so there's not as much need to gang up vs. the short stack. If he has a hand he wants to pay you off with, I'd gladly accept his chips. I don't mind checking the tun behind him in case he called the all-in with something like overcards and a heart draw (unlikely since he didn't raise pre-flop), but I'd probably still test his mettle a little bit since we didn't go all-in on the flop.
End of the day, you just got rather unlucky. You're right that the short stack didn't need a hand as big as a set to go all-in, but this time he had it--go figure.
There's my two cents. Keep it friendly ladies and gents.
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 11:38 am GMT by Skribbles
| mangothebear wrote: | screwthepooch:
I gotta completely disagree with you. Because the two situations are so different, you citing the KK example does absolutely nothing for your argument.
Basically, all you are saying is that there are bad plays going on at your table. Ok, I understand that. There are bad plays made at any table at any given buy in. What you have to observe is who is making the bad plays, what is in the current pot, and how much it costs to play it out.
|
Exactly.
| screwthepooch wrote: |
Either you are just missing the point, or are just being obtuse. I'm not attempting to show you one hand that illustrates the same exact situation as the original hand. What I'm showing is the type of play that makes it profitable to call an all-in such as the one in the initial hand. |
I am aware the situations are different.
Profitable is calling an all-in when you are getting 7:1 pot odds. Calling a 4-5x pot raise, getting 2:1 on your money with a good but vulnerable hand, with only 1BB invested, is not profitable IMO.
Would you have kept with this hand had the 3rd player re-raised (KK hand)?
And why the personal insults? Can you not explain your difference of opinion without starting you post by calling me "obtuse"?
/quote
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:20 pm GMT by screwthepooch
| Skribbles wrote: |
Would you have kept with this hand had the 3rd player re-raised (KK hand)?
|
If the 3rd player re-raised I would have called with no qualms (and if he had KK, I would have laughed at his loss due to slow-playing pre-flop.) As Diamond cutter mentioned, I should have pushed all-in probably, which would have negated the need for me to be such a wuss on the turn and river.
(sorry, didn't re-read the original hand and remembered that a king rivered...guess i would congratulate that guy on a very lucky river that saved him from his terrible pre-flop slow-play.)
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:28 pm GMT by screwthepooch
| mangothebear wrote: | screwthepooch:
In your original hand, the guy made a 5x the pot reraise on the flop bet. Since it was a limped pot, its hard to see this as an overpair. Now the only thing you CAN beat is two smaller pairs. Your pot odds are only slightly over 50/50 - something like 60/40. So the question is, is this guy moving all in with something worse than top two pair 40% of the time?? Since he's not THAT short stacked, I would err on the side of caution (I have nothing invested in this pot) and lay it down. If I had a read on this player, and have seen him make this move with something like top pair or a draw, this would inch me closer to calling this.
|
You say the only thing I CAN beat is two smaller pairs. You are totally discounting the likelihood that he has top pair with non-paired kicker (which we know is not likely to be King or Ace due to pre-flop action). And, you are discounting the all-in push with a flush draw.
In fact, the only hand I need to be scared of is pocket deuces. That's what makes this thread so amusing. I'm not going to put him on pocket sixes as it is unlikely he is holding the case sixes (since I have one.) It is HIGHLY unlikely he has pocket jacks as he would undoubtedly have raised pre-flop (plus again it would be the case jacks). So, based on that, there is only one hand I fear...pocket deuces. As 1988 TR already illustrated, there are a zillion other hands he could have pushed with realistically (and does indeed happen often at these tables.) So, no...i'm not going to put him on the a hand that is already beating me. Therefore (although i don't know the actual stats), I believe I have more than enough pot odds to be in this hand. The real proof will be how many times i'm in a situation like this and I win the pots compared to this one where I lost. I'll start keeping track from now on...LOL.
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:31 pm GMT by Skribbles
| screwthepooch wrote: |
If the 3rd player re-raised I would have called with no qualms (and if he had KK, I would have laughed at his loss due to slow-playing pre-flop.) As Diamond cutter mentioned, I should have pushed all-in probably, which would have negated the need for me to be such a wuss on the turn and river. |
I don't think we are talking about the same hand.
I am refering to when you had KK, flop came AXX and the short stack pushed. You would have continued playing this hand had the other player check/raised? It would be fairly obviously that had he done that he would have definitly hit an a pair of aces leaving you with 2 outs. Hypothetic situation of course.
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:50 pm GMT by 1988 TR
I know some of you like Mr. Harrington. While I am not a big of a fan of his, I am really enjoying his volume 1 book.
Last night I was reading his analysis of a hand where something like 952 flopped and a guy holding AA was put all in. The analysis was interesting because he decided the proper play was to call. It's interesting that you would have a top pro deciding the proper play was to call with AA, but the internet experts here want to fold top 2 pair.
I will look up the hand in the book & post how the betting went so we can speak to the facts better. I just found it interesting.
In the hand that started this thread, I would have put a guy on a hand like KJ and another on the flush draw. I'll look up the odds tonight on what pooch's % was against those type of hands and what his pot odds were. I'll also post what his hand looked like against the dreaded trips.
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:52 pm GMT by screwthepooch
| Skribbles wrote: | | screwthepooch wrote: |
If the 3rd player re-raised I would have called with no qualms (and if he had KK, I would have laughed at his loss due to slow-playing pre-flop.) As Diamond cutter mentioned, I should have pushed all-in probably, which would have negated the need for me to be such a wuss on the turn and river. |
I don't think we are talking about the same hand.
I am refering to when you had KK, flop came AXX and the short stack pushed. You would have continued playing this hand had the other player check/raised? It would be fairly obviously that had he done that he would have definitly hit an a pair of aces leaving you with 2 outs. Hypothetic situation of course. |
Oops, sorry about the missed reference..thought you were asking a different question.
The answer is that if the 3rd guy raises even a small amount, I fold very fast. When that Ace flopped, I never thought I lost a hand more. When I called the short-stacks $15 all-in, I honestly thought I would get re-raised out of the pot. I was sincerely surprised that he folded. He said he folded pocket 10's which sounds reasonable to me.
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:57 pm GMT by 1988 TR
Pooch - What the hell is your avatar??
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 12:58 pm GMT by screwthepooch
| 1988 TR wrote: | | Pooch - What the hell is your avatar?? |
It's a dirty pic of Christina Aguilera. She looks like pooch in it, so it seems apropos of my name "screwthepooch".
LOL.
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:03 pm GMT by Skribbles
| 1988 TR wrote: |
In the hand that started this thread, I would have put a guy on a hand like KJ and another on the flush draw. I'll look up the odds tonight on what pooch's % was against those type of hands and what his pot odds were. I'll also post what his hand looked like against the dreaded trips. |
In a NL 6 handed game wouldn't you raise pre-flop with KJ?
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:07 pm GMT by Geno
OK, I've been reading this thread for quite a while now so let me reveal this which people might find interesting:
A forum IP search on 1988 TR reveals the following:
| Code: | Users posting from this IP address
1988 TR [ 239 Posts ]
screwthepooch [ 30 Posts ] |
So the 'two' guys some of you are arguing with are really just one guy.
As you were :D
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:13 pm GMT by mangothebear
| screwthepooch wrote: | | mangothebear wrote: | screwthepooch:
In your original hand, the guy made a 5x the pot reraise on the flop bet. Since it was a limped pot, its hard to see this as an overpair. Now the only thing you CAN beat is two smaller pairs. Your pot odds are only slightly over 50/50 - something like 60/40. So the question is, is this guy moving all in with something worse than top two pair 40% of the time?? Since he's not THAT short stacked, I would err on the side of caution (I have nothing invested in this pot) and lay it down. If I had a read on this player, and have seen him make this move with something like top pair or a draw, this would inch me closer to calling this.
|
You say the only thing I CAN beat is two smaller pairs. You are totally discounting the likelihood that he has top pair with non-paired kicker (which we know is not likely to be King or Ace due to pre-flop action). And, you are discounting the all-in push with a flush draw.
In fact, the only hand I need to be scared of is pocket deuces. That's what makes this thread so amusing. I'm not going to put him on pocket sixes as it is unlikely he is holding the case sixes (since I have one.) It is HIGHLY unlikely he has pocket jacks as he would undoubtedly have raised pre-flop (plus again it would be the case jacks). So, based on that, there is only one hand I fear...pocket deuces. As 1988 TR already illustrated, there are a zillion other hands he could have pushed with realistically (and does indeed happen often at these tables.) So, no...i'm not going to put him on the a hand that is already beating me. Therefore (although i don't know the actual stats), I believe I have more than enough pot odds to be in this hand. The real proof will be how many times i'm in a situation like this and I win the pots compared to this one where I lost. I'll start keeping track from now on...LOL. |
Odd that you say I discount him having top pair or flush draw, when I address those possibilities right at the end of my post that you quote. My point was that for him to move in for 5 X the pot size on the flop, he would HAVE to be a maniac to do it with flush draw or just top pair. If he had shown he WAS a maniac, I would make the call. But otherwise, I would discount those two options as a likely possibility.
My basic MO is that if I have to hope he is bluffing in order to win a hand, I won't call unless I have a good reason to think he is.
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:15 pm GMT by suitedaces84
| Geno wrote: | OK, I've been reading this thread for quite a while now so let me reveal this which people might find interesting:
A forum IP search on 1988 TR reveals the following:
| Code: | Users posting from this IP address
1988 TR [ 239 Posts ]
screwthepooch [ 30 Posts ] |
So the 'two' guys some of you are arguing with are really just one guy.
As you were :D |
Perhaps they're just posting from the same computer. Or maybe it is one person with multiple personalities. 
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:25 pm GMT by Soup_dog
| screwthepooch wrote: | | 1988 TR wrote: | | Pooch - What the hell is your avatar?? |
It's a dirty pic of Christina Aguilera. She looks like pooch in it, so it seems apropos of my name "screwthepooch".
LOL. |
Man. Can't help but notice the um... large logo on her shirt.
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:27 pm GMT by Soup_dog
| 1988 TR wrote: | I know some of you like Mr. Harrington. While I am not a big of a fan of his, I am really enjoying his volume 1 book.
Last night I was reading his analysis of a hand where something like 952 flopped and a guy holding AA was put all in. The analysis was interesting because he decided the proper play was to call. It's interesting that you would have a top pro deciding the proper play was to call with AA, but the internet experts here want to fold top 2 pair.
I will look up the hand in the book & post how the betting went so we can speak to the facts better. I just found it interesting.
In the hand that started this thread, I would have put a guy on a hand like KJ and another on the flush draw. I'll look up the odds tonight on what pooch's % was against those type of hands and what his pot odds were. I'll also post what his hand looked like against the dreaded trips. |
Yeah, I really like his first book. Some very interesting hand analysis' in there. I was really surprised by some of the starting hands he considers... especially considering his reputation as a rock.
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:28 pm GMT by Soup_dog
| suitedaces84 wrote: | | Geno wrote: | OK, I've been reading this thread for quite a while now so let me reveal this which people might find interesting:
A forum IP search on 1988 TR reveals the following:
| Code: | Users posting from this IP address
1988 TR [ 239 Posts ]
screwthepooch [ 30 Posts ] |
So the 'two' guys some of you are arguing with are really just one guy.
As you were :D |
Perhaps they're just posting from the same computer. Or maybe it is one person with multiple personalities.
|
Yeah, I was thinking roommates or something. Or maybe two guys going through the same network router.
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:30 pm GMT by 1988 TR
| Geno wrote: | OK, I've been reading this thread for quite a while now so let me reveal this which people might find interesting:
A forum IP search on 1988 TR reveals the following:
| Code: | Users posting from this IP address
1988 TR [ 239 Posts ]
screwthepooch [ 30 Posts ] |
So the 'two' guys some of you are arguing with are really just one guy.
As you were :D |
Same workplace.
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 1:34 pm GMT by 1988 TR
| Skribbles wrote: | | 1988 TR wrote: |
In the hand that started this thread, I would have put a guy on a hand like KJ and another on the flush draw. I'll look up the odds tonight on what pooch's % was against those type of hands and what his pot odds were. I'll also post what his hand looked like against the dreaded trips. |
In a NL 6 handed game wouldn't you raise pre-flop with KJ? |
Depends - Not always. If a few have folded to me on the button, I might raise the blinds.
If a few people have called in front of me, I generally wouldn't raise because I am not going to scare enough people off - If they already called 10, if I raise to 30, they most likely call that - Or I get re-raised (even worse). Than I am in the position of needing to flop a hand.
From early position, I may or may not raise. Just depends...
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 2:03 pm GMT by 1988 TR
OK, here are the 2 range of hands I would most likely expect :
Top Pair, Flush (pooch is 54.4% favorite)
Top Pair, Overpair (slow played) - (Pooch is 60.9% favortie)
Now keep in mind a few things. With the 2 other guys in, the pot is giving him over 2:1 to call. Even if the next guy folds, he is getting better than even money and is most likely the favorite. Against one player with top pair or a flush draw, he is an even bigger favorite than the 54.4% and 60.9% above since those percentages are against 2 other players.
Now for the bad hands :
Top pair, trip dueces - (Pooch is 18.2%)
Top pair, trip dueces - (pooch is 9.6%)
So it is just a matter of what you put the opponents on. I know it is possible for the short stack to have trips, but I also know it is highly unlikely for 2 reasons :
1) I hold a J and a 6 already
2) Why would he go all in???
I also don't put the first player on trips given the 10 bet on the flop.
The biggest fault I can see by pooch is not putting in a turn or river bet.
But I seriously can't fault him on the flop play - He had a very strong hand - Top 2 pair. Just not a hand I could lay down against a short stack.
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 2:08 pm GMT by Soup_dog
I don't remember if this was said, but had the third player already call the "all-in" before you acted pooch? If not, do you count his call when figuring the pot odds? Or was he only in for $10 at the time you had to make your decision?
Who would have thought this hand would end up making 10 pages worth of posts?
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 2:10 pm GMT by 1988 TR
Also, the above post was some likely hands/worst case scenarios - How many times have you seen a hand end up like this?
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 2:11 pm GMT by 1988 TR
| Soup_dog wrote: | I don't remember if this was said, but had the third player already call the "all-in" before you acted pooch? If not, do you count his call when figuring the pot odds? Or was he only in for $10 at the time you had to make your decision?
Who would have thought this hand would end up making 10 pages worth of posts? |
1st guy bet 10, short stack went all in.
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 2:29 pm GMT by suitedaces84
^^^That's the kind of hand analysis that is actually useful. Well done.
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 2:40 pm GMT by 1988 TR
| suitedaces84 wrote: | | ^^^That's the kind of hand analysis that is actually useful. Well done. |
Thank you - Much harder work though.... lol
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 2:42 pm GMT by howzit
use twodimes.net
calculates your EV for you.
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1139066
pokenum -h 6c 6s - jd 6d - js 5s -- jh 6h 2d
Holdem Hi: 903 enumerated boards containing 2d Jh 6h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
6s 6c 801 88.70 102 11.30 0 0.00 0.887
Jd 6d 87 9.63 816 90.37 0 0.00 0.096
Js 5s 15 1.66 888 98.34 0 0.00 0.017
(last column)
Posted Fri Aug 12, 2005 2:49 pm GMT by 1988 TR
| howzit wrote: | use twodimes.net
calculates your EV for you.
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1139066
pokenum -h 6c 6s - jd 6d - js 5s -- jh 6h 2d
Holdem Hi: 903 enumerated boards containing 2d Jh 6h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
6s 6c 801 88.70 102 11.30 0 0.00 0.887
Jd 6d 87 9.63 816 90.37 0 0.00 0.096
Js 5s 15 1.66 888 98.34 0 0.00 0.017
(last column) |
Says the same thing as the one I posted, right?
I like that I can post the results though without having to host a pic! Thanks
|
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