Rebuy Hand.... Would Love Opinions |
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Posted Sat Aug 13, 2005 11:34 am GMT by wEbMaStEr
Ok, this is a rebuy hand about 10 mins from end of rebuy period.
I would love to hear both criticisms and praise?
If you like i can post my thoughts while i played the hand, but i'd rather hear opinions first if poss. 
http://www.pokerhand.org/index.php?page=view&hand=105154
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Posted Sat Aug 13, 2005 12:21 pm GMT by Geno
I didn't like the raise on a draw and I didn't like the turn bet at all. But that is just me and I don't know sh*t :D
Posted Sat Aug 13, 2005 12:52 pm GMT by Dr_Pablo
i dont know how big of a fan i am of the RE raise on the flop, or the bet on the turn, id be pretty sure one of them has a jack, in fact id be positive.
but it really all depends if you think getting the chips is worth it, or if you wanna pump another buy in.
Posted Sat Aug 13, 2005 4:42 pm GMT by TheSalche
Seems to me like you figured out that they both have jacks at the flop ... so they were going to stick with you the whole way ... with the dead money that began in the pot, youve got pretty close to 2 to 1 odds even though you cover one of your opponents. Assuming you're willing to gamble and take the chance that neither of them hits their kicker to make a boat ... you're getting close to your odds here to make this play correct.
Yes it was a gamble, but I suppose in a rebuy, this is the best way to build your stack up, and it worked out nicely for you this time.
Easily can go either way ... but I think I still agree with Pablo that the flop re-raise may not have been the best idea, but I can see your thinking behind it.
Posted Sun Aug 14, 2005 9:17 am GMT by suitedaces84
I like the first raise on the flop everything after that is pretty bad, IMO. It's obvious that at least one of them has a J. I highly doubt you can make anyone fold a J there. Semi-bluffs are only a good idea when there is a chance it will work as a bluff.
Posted Sun Aug 14, 2005 10:48 am GMT by wEbMaStEr
I myself can't work out if this was a terrible move got lucky or a piece of inspired genius that goes to prove i am indeed the hottest thing in poker.
The raise on the flop, obviously cos i have the flush draw and want to take the pot down there and then if poss.
The reraise because i was not entirely convinced that either of them had the goods. calling my reraise told me that at least 1, possibly both of them had a J.
I think they made a mistake on the flop themselves, i could tell they weren't sure what to do, if they had moved in after my reraise i would of course have mucked there and then.
With this information and about 4.5k in the pot, i figure neither of them may have AJ and it is distinctly possible a large bet here could make them lay down, if not and they both call then i'm getting 3:1 to hit my flush and the prospect of taking 16K+ into the break. If it all went wrong then i rebuy and go into break with 5k anyways.
As it turns out, i was right that niether had the nuts, wrong about making them laydown, i got lucky and hit my flush 8)
Didn't help me cash in the tourney tho 
Posted Sun Aug 14, 2005 5:18 pm GMT by tame_deuces
I bet it was a fun hand to play 
Posted Mon Aug 15, 2005 12:38 am GMT by wEbMaStEr
Oh man! You have no idea! The whole place exploded when the river hit 
Posted Mon Aug 15, 2005 5:11 am GMT by Tadzio
Gotta love the "I had clubs too" comment. Like his clubs would tie your clubs or something 
Posted Mon Aug 15, 2005 7:58 am GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| Tadzio wrote: | | Gotta love the "I had clubs too" comment. Like his clubs would tie your clubs or something |
Or maybe as a means to illustrate that Webby had fewer outs than he originally anticipated... 
Posted Mon Aug 15, 2005 8:13 am GMT by Muck
Or that he would have taken all of his chips too
Can’t say that I like this play that much but I’m one of those skinflints who hates to re-buy.
Posted Mon Aug 15, 2005 8:20 am GMT by howzit
no good.
Your FIRST flop raise is ok on the flop because it'll clean up your club outs and also make hands like 10-10, QQ fold. Once you get a cold caller on the flop, you should be finished w/the hand. Why you want to put in a third raise when you could be drawing dead for fold equity is beyond me.
You're going to get zero fold equity on the turn and you have 7 flush outs if you're not already drawing dead to 3s full.
I fold after the guy makes it 700. but this is a rebuy so who cares, AHHH-RIN BABY!!
Posted Mon Aug 15, 2005 9:26 am GMT by Skribbles
Good Play.
If I'm in this situation I want to get all my chips in along with BOTH of theirs. You had 5000 left, you lose the hand, you rebuy+rebuy+addon and you have 5000 again. Win and you're in good position when the freezeout starts.
Posted Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:04 am GMT by Aves
Horribly played hand imho. This is an example where one mistake compounds into more and more mistakes throughout the hand.
First mistake, calling preflop. K2 suited is an awful hand that I would debate completing with in the small blind much less limping in with.
Second mistake, reraising the flop. Raising the flop on a draw is good if you think it can take the pot or buy you a free card on the turn, so I don't mind this move. (Although, I think just calling is a FAR better choice as a bell should be ringing about the SB's weak lead into a multiway pot). When the SB reraises and there is a cold caller, alarms should definitely be going off by now, as you are most likely behind or drawing dead. I will fold the hand there.
Third mistake, pushing the turn. As howzit said, you have about zero fold equity. How can the deuce of spades turn card possibly be a scare card for the reraiser and the cold caller? My biggest question here is they both checked to you (who knows why?), why don't you just check behind. You know you are behind (or drawing dead). Their checks make me even more scared one of them has a boat already. Hope for a non-club river so that you can fold the hand with ease and save your money.
Other considerations to think about. The cold caller only had 2900 to start the hand, so you aren't getting 16k+ if you win, but more like 13.5k. You should really be discounting some of your flush outs as most likely 2 of them will make your opponents boats, (if they don't already have them). These 2 facts alone shows you aren't getting good enough implied odds to hit your flush, which should point to a fold after getting reraised.
Posted Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:37 am GMT by Skribbles
| Aves wrote: | Horribly played hand imho. This is an example where one mistake compounds into more and more mistakes throughout the hand.
First mistake, calling preflop. K2 suited is an awful hand that I would debate completing with in the small blind much less limping in with.
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I think you are missing the biggest factor... REBUY! In these tournys, if you go into the freezeout period with 5000 chips, you are going to be in the bottom 5-10% and fighting an uphill battle the rest of the way.
If I'm sitting around 5000 chips during the last 5-10 minutes of the rebuy period, I'm seeing almost every flop hoping to have a chance to double up.
Had this hand been in a cash game or during the freezeout period, I would say awful, awful play. But it was the last hand of a rebuy. He flopped a four flush with a great chance at almost tripling his chip count. The way he played it made sure that all the chips were going in, grant it a push all-in on the flop would have gotten two callers. True, the boat is out there but the reward outweighs the risk.
Posted Mon Aug 15, 2005 11:24 am GMT by wEbMaStEr
Thanks skribbles, you totally get it.
There is NO WAY i would even be limping in with that starting hand in a freezeout. This is the mindset that i see time and time again in rebuys, It's a rebuy guys!! The object of rebuy period is to accumulate as many chips as possible before rebuy period ends.
I would totally be against the idea of sitting at a rebuy table with fewer than 4 rebuys plus the addon in your pocket.
Aves, you start your reply by saying one mistake compounding another, this may have been the case if i did not know exactly what i was doing. IMO i did not make a mistake because i had a pretty good idea of what was going on in their hands.
Fair enough, the fh could have been hit, but, it seems you are forgetting that these 2 guys are missing vital information that i have and they don't.
I know (i use the word know but we all know 1 can never absolutely know) where the sets are, those 2 don't. For all they know, I could be sitting with the AJ or the fh and the other guy is just along for the ride.
As the aggressor I am putting them on the back foot already, now while i don't reasonably expect that they will lay it down, there is always that chance.
The other point is.... I check the turn, when the river brings the 3rd club and i shove my money in...... who's gonna call it?
Posted Mon Aug 15, 2005 11:57 am GMT by Loonbat
| wEbMaStEr wrote: | Thanks skribbles, you totally get it.
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BAH - a Scotsman looking to a drunk Canadian as an ally ...
(Just busting on you Skribs)
I understand the point but I allot myself a total of 3 units for a rebuy tourney ... initial buyin, initial rebuy and 1-hour add on. So, the strategy (while I understand it) is not my own.
Posted Mon Aug 15, 2005 12:14 pm GMT by Aves
Even though this is a rebuy tournament, I still don't believe it is the right play. Granted you and others might have a different philosophy towards these tournaments and thats fine. For me, I would still fold after the flop reraise knowing I am not getting good implied odds on my flush (i.e. it is minus EV if i hit it or not). I do understand your sense of gambling it up since it is a rebuy tourney and I would probly do so also if I thought I had even a small edge (like a PP vs overcards, or a flush draw on a nonpaired board with 2 people who cover me).
Another point I want to bring up is you say in your replies that
"I think they made a mistake on the flop themselves, i could tell they weren't sure what to do, if they had moved in after my reraise i would of course have mucked there and then.
With this information and about 4.5k in the pot, i figure neither of them may have AJ and it is distinctly possible a large bet here could make them lay down."
and
"Fair enough, the fh could have been hit, but, it seems you are forgetting that these 2 guys are missing vital information that i have and they don't.
I know (i use the word know but we all know 1 can never absolutely know) where the sets are, those 2 don't. For all they know, I could be sitting with the AJ or the fh and the other guy is just along for the ride.
As the aggressor I am putting them on the back foot already, now while i don't reasonably expect that they will lay it down, there is always that chance. "
It seems that you think they are unsure of their holdings and there is a chance they will fold. I think multiple people have already mentioned they are pretty much never folding. You only think you are the aggressor putting them on their back feet. But in fact, they BOTH think they have such strong hands that they are BOTH slow playing (weak lead, overcalling, minraising). It seems like you perceived this as weakness on their part (which is what they wanted you to think), and you did exactly what they were hoping you would do, put all your money in. In fact, I think the guy with KJ played the hand rather well, and the guy with 9J somewhat unlucky as I would be hard pressed to fold that hand myself. I hope I am not coming off harsh as that is not my intention. I am just hoping to show what I think really went on in this hand, so you might recognize a similar situation in the future and hopefully tread more cautiously.
To answer your 3rd point, if you check behind on the turn and a club hits on the river - most of the time, at least one of them will value bet thinking they probly still have the best hand, and after you push all in, both will call instantly. The rest of the time, they will both check to you, you'll push all in, and they will both call instantly no questions asked.
Posted Mon Aug 15, 2005 12:28 pm GMT by Aves
On a somewhat unrelated topic, I think it is better if everyone who posts a hand history to try and not include the results in the original post, as I think it really affects many people's judgment on a hand. The actual results of the hand should be posted after people have had time to weigh in with their thoughts.
Posted Mon Aug 15, 2005 12:31 pm GMT by Skribbles
| Loonbat wrote: |
I understand the point but I allot myself a total of 3 units for a rebuy tourney ... initial buyin, initial rebuy and 1-hour add on. So, the strategy (while I understand it) is not my own. |
That is the only difference in the way this hand should be played: If you are willing to put in the rebuy x2 + Add-on or not.
If you are serious about having a chance at winning the tourny, then this is a must push after the flop. Playing with 5000 chips at the beginning of a freezeout is not fun. You will only have a couple plays left and if they don't hit you are done.
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