Posted Fri Aug 19, 2005 1:28 pm GMT by Dave B
I see this a lot in SNGs and was wondering your opinions. I rarely do this, but when I do, it typically works.
Do you ever call bets, knowing you are beat, but planning on bluffing later?
Here is what I run into a lot in NL tournaments, my AK AQ raise preflop in position and a blind calls.
Flop 972 or the like, I bet 1/2 pot or pot and get one caller.
Turn blank, I check or bet again
River the other players comes out firing. Does he have something?
How many of you will call bets hoping that the other player slows down, so you can stab at the pot? How often (10% 30% 70%?) do you think a player has a hand under these circumstances and how often is it a pure bluff when they have nothing?
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Posted Fri Aug 19, 2005 1:39 pm GMT by age_of_sages
This is a play I'll do in either NL or FL. Being that I play alot more FL, I do it more there. It's not something I'll do often, but it's definitely something in my arsenal to use 2-3 times/day.
As for whether I think they're bluffing or not, i don't think that's as important as whether I think they're going to fold to my play. If I've got a very solid reputation and I know they're a decent player that can make a lay down, I'll be more liberal with what kind of hand I think they have. But if my reputation isn't so good, or the player seems kind of fishy and wouldn't lay down that 2nd pair (which is more often the scenario I run in to.) I'm not going to try that move on them.
Posted Fri Aug 19, 2005 1:39 pm GMT by 1988 TR
| Dave B wrote: | I see this a lot in SNGs and was wondering your opinions. I rarely do this, but when I do, it typically works.
Do you ever call bets, knowing you are beat, but planning on bluffing later?
Here is what I run into a lot in NL tournaments, my AK AQ raise preflop in position and a blind calls.
Flop 972 or the like, I bet 1/2 pot or pot and get one caller.
Turn blank, I check or bet again
River the other players comes out firing. Does he have something?
How many of you will call bets hoping that the other player slows down, so you can stab at the pot? How often (10% 30% 70%?) do you think a player has a hand under these circumstances and how often is it a pure bluff when they have nothing? |
I definitely do this. I call it "bluff calling".
Say you missed a flop like 556 and your opponent comes out betting & you really don't think they hit. I'll call with the plan that if the turn is not scary (Ace, etc), that I cam going to either check raise the turn or come out firing a good sized bet.
What works even better is when you have the 5 and you lead out with a bet.... By the same logic, nobody ever puts you on the 5.
In the situation you described above, I would venture you are beat 75% - 85% - The hands you are going to catch are busted straights, AJ, etc.
Weather you call or not will depend on a lot of things - Chip stack, size of bet, size of pot, player making the bet, etc.
Unless you are extremely short stacked or the bet is small, I don't see any reason to call the river.
The reason I put the odds so high that you are beat is mostly because of the odds he will have a hand or not - You will only beat a very specific kind of hand - 810, AJ, etc. But you could dream up a ton of hands that have your AQ beat.
Posted Fri Aug 19, 2005 1:53 pm GMT by Dave B
I am the bluffer occasionally too.
It just gets frustrating on the other end after putting in 20-30% of your stack, then laying it down when every instinct tells me that he is just stealing but your A high looks pretty weak when you are facing a bet for 1/2 your remaining stack.
Posted Fri Aug 19, 2005 1:56 pm GMT by Skribbles
I like to bluff alot in early stages of SNGs.
If for example I get AK in late position, I'll put out a decent raise and have a couple callers. Flop comes J62 rainbow. Chances are the flop missed or maybe someone caught a J. I'll continue betting/raising a hand like this trying to represent and overpair. If a guy is check/calling all the way to the river, I'll usually push here if the flop stays ugly with J high. Most players, probably 90%, will fold to an all-in on the river. No one likes to bust out of a SNG within the first two levels so they'll lay down a hand like JT, QJ. I'd say this works for me about 80% of the time. When it doesn't work, it is usually some donk calling down with low pockets or a weak J.
Lately I've only been playing up to $20 SNGs so the play may be different higher up. I'm not working about a strong J here, AJ, as most often players will raise with this hand.
The best bluff I find is being in position and simply calling a bet on the flop. The player who bet out will likely think you're slowplaying something and check to you on the turn. Here I fire out a pot bet and usually take it down. If I get played back at, time to fold as you know he has something big.
Everything though, of course, is situational.
Posted Fri Aug 19, 2005 2:10 pm GMT by crack
Dave your question is so dependant on the player, stacks in the sng, blinds, players left.
I can say I have made this move before, but I prefer to come out firing on the turn or if I am in position raise on the turn. I can't give a percentage I do this really. I am not sure, I do it if I think it's the right move to make.
The reason I don't like doing it on the river coming out firing is because it's only one more bet for the player to call. At least on the turn he may think he has to call another bet on the river.
Posted Fri Aug 19, 2005 6:23 pm GMT by snoogins47
I do this a decent amount with both a)mediocre draws with little showdown value, and b)absolute trash, if the situation is right. Of course, there are other times, but these are just the two off the top of my head that come up somewhat frequently.
A is usually something like... say I have JdQd in the 15/30 blind level of a SNG, somebody in MP min-raises, I call from the button, and the BB calls.
Flop comes down Td 8s 2c, and the preflop raiser makes a small continuation bet, and probably just has high cards. Things like this work especially well against the wussy players who don't fire again on the turn if they've missed. You're getting all the information you need about his hand by investing a pretty tiny amount.
Another is when a scaredy-weak-tightie re-raises you preflop, and then makes a small bet on an ace-high board. That's even more fun.
Posted Fri Aug 19, 2005 11:19 pm GMT by Dave B
Back to my main question, how many call decent size bets in NL with no hand no draw with the plan of putting on a stone cold bluff on the turn or river.
Posted Sat Aug 20, 2005 2:28 am GMT by snoogins47
| Dave B wrote: | | Back to my main question, how many call decent size bets in NL with no hand no draw with the plan of putting on a stone cold bluff on the turn or river. |
Ahh, I didn't catch the no-hand no-draw part. My scenario with the Ace on board is probably more what you're talking about.
Posted Sat Aug 20, 2005 2:33 am GMT by mikenike
snoggins this a newbie question...
whats MP poosition? like wghats it stand for.. and utg is under the gun... is that the postion before the big blind?
ty ~mike
Posted Sat Aug 20, 2005 2:37 am GMT by supafrey
UTG is under the gun... (The position just after the blind)
Then comes UTG + 1 (The next player, in turn)
MP refers to middle position. This usually refers to people that aren't utg or utg+1, but aren't just before the dealer's button.
LP refers to late position. People that are acting just before the dealer, who have the privelage of seeing most action before them.
On the button is the dealer. ^_^
The importance of these positions is most commonly shown in the quality of cards playable. For example, in a full 10 person game, A10o isn't that great UTG or UTG+1, and should most likely get mucked. However, in late position or on the button, it's probably worth a raise or a steal attempt, or maybe just a call.
Ta dah.
P.S. Or you can be like me and play.. any.. 2 cards... ever.. because.. they win.
Posted Sat Aug 20, 2005 1:46 pm GMT by Bobross139
| Skribbles wrote: | I'll usually push here if the flop stays ugly with J high. Most players, probably 90%, will fold to an all-in on the river. No one likes to bust out of a SNG within the first two levels so they'll lay down a hand like JT, QJ. I'd say this works for me about 80% of the time. When it doesn't work, it is usually some donk calling down with low pockets or a weak J.
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I can't say this is the case, at least the SNGs I play. Top pair with a kicker at least 9 or maybe 10, and a majority of the players at an online SNG are going to call an allin. At least that's my experience.
Posted Sat Aug 20, 2005 2:47 pm GMT by tame_deuces
I don't do the call now/bluff later procedure much, but I know it is effective. One of my regular poker-buddies often uses this play against me. But it is only usable against 'experienced' poker players I think, because they get more intimidated by a call on the flop.
Posted Mon Aug 22, 2005 2:51 pm GMT by rebuyman
doyle brunson did this against gus hanson on the partypoker invitational. gus had bottom pair and doyle had nothing. gus bet on the flop and doyle called. then gus bet on a blank turn and brunson raised him 3x his bet and gus folded.
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