Posted Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:36 am GMT by screwthepooch
This to me is interesting because of the villains bad call (IMO) after the flop and even when he hits something on the turn, the best he could milk out of me is 140 chips! Why make a call with 1/4th of your chips on a gutshot with one overcard when the opponent (me) has made a strong pre-flop raise and a strong flop bet...only to find that you can't even be sure you have won the hand when your Ace comes?
FullTiltPoker Game #194478176: $100 + $9 Tournament (1175554), Table 9 - 80/160 - No Limit Hold'em - 21:23:53 ET - 2005/08/23
Seat 1: SenorOpus (3,850)
Seat 2: TheFranchise77 (5,030)
Seat 3: upaymybills (4,560)
Seat 4: acesfull_pa (3,765)
Seat 5: rob3519 (2,110)
Seat 6: EDawg (3,060)
Seat 7: Lemberakis13 (1,890)
Seat 8: MrStaxx_1 (3,215)
Seat 9: luckydogsr (7,545)
rob3519 posts the small blind of 80
EDawg posts the big blind of 160
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to upaymybills  
Lemberakis13 folds
MrStaxx_1 calls 160
luckydogsr folds
SenorOpus folds
TheFranchise77 folds
upaymybills raises to 500
acesfull_pa folds
rob3519 folds
EDawg folds
MrStaxx_1 calls 340
*** FLOP ***   
MrStaxx_1 checks
upaymybills bets 700
MrStaxx_1 calls 700
*** TURN *** 
MrStaxx_1 checks
upaymybills checks
*** RIVER *** 
MrStaxx_1 bets 160
upaymybills calls 160
*** SHOW DOWN ***
MrStaxx_1 shows   (a pair of Aces)
upaymybills mucks
MrStaxx_1 wins the pot (2,960) with a pair of Aces
I would say I lost about the least amount possible all things considered.
The good news is that MrStaxx_1 didn't win any money in this tourney so F him for beating me in this hand. 
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Posted Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:48 am GMT by screwthepooch
Last hand from the same tourney (this hand busted me out). When I rag on him after I see his hand that beats me, he wants to go off and tell me how somehow he is in the top 10 of online players in the world...lol. Supposedly it's posted somewhere on pokerstars, so if anyone has the word on this goofball, please share it. However, as I told him, I'm not sure how his play looked like a top ten play...
FullTiltPoker Game #194497392: $100 + $9 Tournament (1175554), Table 7 - 120/240 Ante 25 - No Limit Hold'em - 21:41:56 ET - 2005/08/23
Seat 1: JCC6603 (7,251)
Seat 2: Stonekiller (3,465)
Seat 3: dan1117 (8,408)
Seat 4: Spapster (10,035)
Seat 5: PIZOWNER (5,974)
Seat 6: det3313 (6,890)
Seat 7: upaymybills (3,150)
Seat 8: AppSt2004 (7,745)
Seat 9: Kratos223 (4,627)
JCC6603 antes 25
Stonekiller antes 25
dan1117 antes 25
Spapster antes 25
PIZOWNER antes 25
det3313 antes 25
upaymybills antes 25
AppSt2004 antes 25
Kratos223 antes 25
det3313 posts the small blind of 120
upaymybills posts the big blind of 240
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to upaymybills  
AppSt2004 raises to 960
Kratos223 folds
JCC6603 folds
Stonekiller folds
dan1117 folds
Spapster calls 960
PIZOWNER folds
det3313 folds
upaymybills raises to 3,125, and is all in
AppSt2004 raises to 7,720, and is all in
Spapster folds
AppSt2004 shows 
upaymybills shows
Uncalled bet of 4,595 returned to AppSt2004
*** FLOP ***  
*** TURN ***
*** RIVER *** 
AppSt2004 shows a straight, Ace high
upaymybills shows two pair, Aces and Kings
AppSt2004 wins the pot (7,555) with a straight, Ace high
upaymybills stands up
Posted Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:56 am GMT by Loonbat
Hand 1:
Qs are A/K magnets ...
His river bet was very unsure (and thus, very small). He may have thought he was beaten and used it as a blocker bet, or he may have suspected he had the best hand but wasn't willing to risk alot to see, especially if you came over-the-top.
I think you played it fine, and he shouldn't have called the flop bet.
Posted Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:10 am GMT by Loonbat
| screwthepooch wrote: | Last hand from the same tourney (this hand busted me out). When I rag on him after I see his hand that beats me, he wants to go off and tell me how somehow he is in the top 10 of online players in the world...lol. Supposedly it's posted somewhere on pokerstars, so if anyone has the word on this goofball, please share it. However, as I told him, I'm not sure how his play looked like a top ten play...
|
Your opponent has made about 80K this year in Pokerstar tournaments and ranks 51st on the database.
IMHO, AK is the most overplayed hand in NL hold'em. Depending on my mood, I may have just called or I may have pushed, as you did. The opponent made a push with poor holdings and he made a bad call, for about 40% of his stack, when you pushed all-in.
But, what were you putting him on? You saw a 4xBB bump from him UTG and saw another cold call from MP. At this point, having no other information about your opponents and having bad position for the hand (irrelevant if all-in), I'm probably just calling for 30% of my stack. Sad, but true ... A or K flops, I push all-in. If not, I'm tucking tail.
Posted Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:29 am GMT by Muck
| Loonbat wrote: | | Your opponent has made about 80K this year in Pokerstar |
Does it show how much he spent in buy-in’s?
Posted Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:30 am GMT by Loonbat
| Muck wrote: | | Loonbat wrote: | | Your opponent has made about 80K this year in Pokerstar |
Does it show how much he spent in buy-in’s? |
Nope ... but he's had several FT appearances.
Posted Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:31 am GMT by bluef0x
Hand 1: You are looking for sympathy? I don't see why you are posting this in advanced theory. People are idiots, nothing new.
Hand 2: I don't understand the guys pf raise, maybe the tables been ultra tight... but he played it fine after your push. He could have thought this was an opportunity for you to steal and push with any two... and he figured at worst it was most likely a coinflip. He was getting over 2:1 on his call. You were correct in pushing, he was correct in calling
Posted Wed Aug 24, 2005 10:59 am GMT by Muck
| Loonbat wrote: | | Muck wrote: | | Loonbat wrote: | | Your opponent has made about 80K this year in Pokerstar |
Does it show how much he spent in buy-in’s? |
Nope ... but he's had several FT appearances. |
Oh don’t get me wrong I’m sure he’s probably a good player, I’d just like to get a better idea of how much he plays, invests and profits.
Posted Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:02 am GMT by Loonbat
| bluef0x wrote: |
Hand 2: I don't understand the guys pf raise, maybe the tables been ultra tight... but he played it fine after your push. He could have thought this was an opportunity for you to steal and push with any two... and he figured at worst it was most likely a coinflip. He was getting over 2:1 on his call. You were correct in pushing, he was correct in calling |
I guess but ...
KTs has the following EVs vs strong hands:
AKs - 29%
AKo - 31%
AA - 19%
KK - 15%
QQ - 33% (borderline based on pot odds)
So, if KTs read it as a steal, a good call. As a pot odds based call, not so good.
Posted Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:07 am GMT by screwthepooch
| bluef0x wrote: | Hand 1: You are looking for sympathy? I don't see why you are posting this in advanced theory. People are idiots, nothing new.
Hand 2: I don't understand the guys pf raise, maybe the tables been ultra tight... but he played it fine after your push. He could have thought this was an opportunity for you to steal and push with any two... and he figured at worst it was most likely a coinflip. He was getting over 2:1 on his call. You were correct in pushing, he was correct in calling |
blue, you are not the message board librarian, and I don't believe we follow the dewey decimal system here, so I'll post it here if I want to. I think the hand is interesting enough to merit discussion as it required a flop bet despite the over-card and possibly a lesson to those who would call with 1 over-card and an ISD like this guy did as to how screwed you are unless you hit the miracle card for the straight. There's a lesson there because he called over 1,000 chips when he was behind and only won 150 or so more when he was ahead. I think that's appropriate for this forum.
Regarding hand 2, I don't know how you think he was correct in his action. Even if he reads me as a steal which would be stupid since he had raised to 1k pre-flop, and my raise to 3k would hardly be considered enough to knock out someone who already raised to 1k...not only that, but there was the guy who called his raise already, so anyone with half a brain has to expect that I have a hand as does the other guy. I honestly was surprised that the guy who had called his first raise did not call...i'm pretty sure he had a better hand than K10...I would guess pocket J's or lower and that he knew based on our raises that he was faced with either higher pocket pairs or AK, AQ's...
This so-called top 10 player (or top 50 on Pokerstars ..which is not the entire world btw...lol) should have put me on pocket pair or Ace High...and should have known he was behind, but he was too committed apparently. For all he knew though, he was going to get called by the 3rd player in which case he was likely 3rd best in the hand. I don't see how that could possibly be a good play. I think he over-committed with his raise to 1k and said to himself..."ah f*ck it". And, that is not an expert play. That is just desperation.
Posted Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:14 pm GMT by bluef0x
What do you want us to analyze? Why he stayed in? Who knows... ive had people call my all-ins with 4-8 on a KKQ10 board when I had AA... no one knows what these donks are thinking.
You arent understanding odds obviously... he's getting over 2:1 on his call.. even if he puts you on a weak ace or pocketpair- he's getting the odds to make a call. Don't post a hand you want to be "analyzed" if you aren't going to take some criticizing.
Posted Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:40 pm GMT by screwthepooch
| bluef0x wrote: | What do you want us to analyze? Why he stayed in? Who knows... ive had people call my all-ins with 4-8 on a KKQ10 board when I had AA... no one knows what these donks are thinking.
You arent understanding odds obviously... he's getting over 2:1 on his call.. even if he puts you on a weak ace or pocketpair- he's getting the odds to make a call. Don't post a hand you want to be "analyzed" if you aren't going to take some criticizing. |
I may not be an expert in calculating odds, but considering when he re-raises my all-in, there is still one caller left who has more chips than him and showed a willingness to call his first 1k raise (which either indicates a limp of sorts or a smooth call with high pocket pair (IMHO)) I do not see how it is in his best interest to push all-in with King Ten suited and risk his tourney life on a multi-way pot where he HAS to think he is an underdog. This is a tourney, not a cash game. Survival is more important and King Ten suited is no hand to put your tourney life on. It's an absolutelty terrible play with three of us in the hand at that point. Heads-up against just me who is about 40% of his stack is probably piss poor too, but not quite as terrible. Again, how can anyone put me on an outright steal with me re-raising over a raise and a call of 1k already? He has to put me on AK, AQ or at a minimum AJ if not a pocket pair in which case he is at most an underdog and at worst absolutely dominated (as it turned out). Blue, I think your analysis of this hand is way off base. Perhaps you just did not read that it was an MTT? If not, please play in my tourney from now on
Posted Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:50 pm GMT by bluef0x
You must think everyone is a clone of yourself.. he doesn't have to put you on ANYTHING. Just because you made a move where it looks like you have something doesn't mean shit. You are short on chips and he may think you are getting desperate.. he might even be ahead in the hand. His reraise all-in was an isolation play and it worked (as i would have imagined.) You gave no information on wether you are ITM or not, avg chipstack, how many pay, how many left... so I can't say survival is key right now. You ragging on him after he made a fine play shows how classy you are.
Posted Wed Aug 24, 2005 1:59 pm GMT by Loonbat
| bluef0x wrote: | | You ragging on him after he made a fine play shows how classy you are. |
Geno and other mods .... puhleaze (pretty please) let me start the name calling. This quote is JUST SO F*CKING laughable.
Normally I like abusing screwthepooch, but in this case I can't ... I agree with him :::gasp:::
Posted Wed Aug 24, 2005 2:17 pm GMT by bluef0x
 Call my a hypocrit if you want but forums and poker is different and i wasnt the one who just made a post named "online jerks" talking about players ragging on others 
Posted Wed Aug 24, 2005 3:07 pm GMT by 1988 TR
Blue is such a joke that even I have started to ignore him.
Posted Wed Aug 24, 2005 3:10 pm GMT by screwthepooch
| bluef0x wrote: | | Call my a hypocrit if you want but forums and poker is different and i wasnt the one who just made a post named "online jerks" talking about players ragging on others |
Okay, let me clarify what I meant by "ragging" on him.
I said "OMG, how could you be all-in with that crap?"
He responded by telling me how he was one of the top ten online players in the world.
I replied "That was no "top-ten" play...That was terrible".
And that was it. I didn't call him names or cuss. I merely expressed my opinion about his play.
Posted Wed Aug 24, 2005 3:40 pm GMT by Skribbles
The only possible reason for his call to be justified is if he had an amazing read on the poochscrewer and figured him for low pockets.
Had you pushed pre-flop anytime in this tourny? If you did, were you called and what did you show? If not, awful play on his part.
Another "slightly" justifiable reason would be to take a shot. He had you more than doubled and winning this hand would have put him chip lead at the table. If he loses, he still has aprox. 4000 chips and is still in good shape compared to the blinds. Assuming that you didn't have a high pair, he would have at least 1 live card, possibly 2 plus his flush/straight possibilities.
The first caller he got I wouldn't worry about. If he had a strong hand he would have re-raised being big stack at the table. Then after you push and the original raiser pushes, the big stack will not have anything to do with this hand 99% of the time. Unless he had AA or KK big stack is folding. If he did have one of these hands, he would have re-raised before you got a chance to push. The table leader isn't going to risk 70% of his stack going all-in unless he has AA or KK.
Posted Wed Aug 24, 2005 3:47 pm GMT by bluef0x
Dude, you have to realize not everyone is playing just to get ITM... some are playing to WIN. He's getting 2:1 on a call and even if he loses he still has room to play... if he wins hes in awesome shape.
Posted Wed Aug 24, 2005 4:13 pm GMT by Loonbat
Dude - see above. 2-1 is crappy odds against alot of big hands.
Posted Wed Aug 24, 2005 4:43 pm GMT by screwthepooch
blue,
separate yourself from the thread for a moment.
Realize you are getting a hard-on for K10 suited and that you have spent many words rationalizing how the short-stack probably had nothing...small pocket pair at best...
That is the exact kind of rationalizing I want people to make against me. Even if I have small pocket pair, I'm still a favorite. Exactly how many hands can you put me on that give you an edge? You're whining about a change to "win" the tournament...well, I'm not just trying to be In The Money myself. I may be in survival mode, but if this guy underestimates my hand (which he did, and severely so), then he puts himself in survival mode and puts me back in great shape.
Seriously, if you believe K10 should be played this way in a tourney (and in this case, it was down from 79 to about 32 players ($100 entry), then I think you and that guy will be watching me from the rail the majority of the time.
It is not in my experience that a short-stack of 3k (which is not the same as 1k) will push with something that K10 can beat. True, it may happen from time to time, but 3k is still in decent enough shape to wait for a good hand, and I for one would give the guy (me) enough credit to believe he AT LEAST had K10 dominated. If I had 900 chips and tried to steal, I have no problem with him calling here. Clearly a small 900 chip stack is more desperate and it would not hurt him much to call anyway, but again we are talking about 40% of his stack.
Posted Wed Aug 24, 2005 4:47 pm GMT by Skribbles
| bluef0x wrote: | | Dude, you have to realize not everyone is playing just to get ITM... some are playing to WIN. He's getting 2:1 on a call and even if he loses he still has room to play... if he wins hes in awesome shape. |
I really hope this wasn't directed towards me.
Posted Wed Aug 24, 2005 4:52 pm GMT by Soup_dog
Gotta go with "the poochster" on this one. A terrible terrible call in hand number two. Sure looks like he said "what the hell" to me. If those kind of moves are what put him in the top 50 among tourny players... I must be doing something wrong.
Posted Wed Aug 24, 2005 4:59 pm GMT by 1988 TR
I think most people would agree that K10 severly overplayed his hand.
The fact that Blue likes the play just confirms for me how I view his quality of play.
Posted Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:56 pm GMT by suitedaces84
| screwthepooch wrote: | | ...AppSt2004... |
Completely irrelevant sidenote: that's where I go to school.
Posted Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:58 pm GMT by Tadzio
I think screw's play on these two hands are fine. On the second hand: A 1000 bet coming into you PF when you have 3000 in chips... you just gotta go all-in, even if AK is just a drawing hand. I wouldn't have called with KTs, but you did what you had to and he stuck around to get lucky. Blue's rationale is the only one I can think of that makes any kind of sense, but he needed to show more self-control. Seems like he wanted to go all-in vs someone (4x BB UTG... that's begging for a re-raise and heads-up showdown)... and with KTs, you just don't do that. Or at least... I don't.
The first hand's caller... I dunno what he was planning. His flop call was bad. His turn check was bad, and his river bet was horrible. It was obvious he was only playing for 4 outs (although he had more than 4). Calling that flop bet to make money on 4 possibly live outs isn't smart (and as it turned out, screw had 2 of those 4 outs). The ace on the turn gave QJ a straight, and maybe he feared that, but he did nothing to find out if you had QJ. If the Ace didn't make him happy, then the J definately wouldn't have made him happy, and that leaves only a Q that'd make him happy. Bad, rotten flop call. He was playing scared... and, I'd guess, would have folded to a pot-sized raise on the river. I probably would've bluffed at him on the river (I woulda put him on a pair of Kings), but that's just my gut speaking. Calling it off probably was the correct play.
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