Should I have folded the 2nd flush? |
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Posted Tue Aug 30, 2005 6:00 am GMT by Muck
SnG.
8 Player remain
Blinds 25-50
I must admit I was chatting to my gf and not paying much attention but I still think this was played okay.
3 limpers
SB Call
BB K 4 Check
(Everyone’s stack is between 850 and 1200)
Pot 250
Flop 2 8 T
SB leads off with a check.
Gets to CO who bets 50.
Button Calls
SB folds
I call.
MP calls.
Pot 450
Turn 9
I lead out with a 350 bet
MP folds
CO folds
Button raises me another 500. I call all-in.
He turn over A 3
River is irrelevant.
Now I’m always cautious of the higher flush but in this situation I just couldn’t stop myself calling. I hoped he might have A T (unlikely with no PF raise) or maybe J Q.
I just chose to ignore the betting and seek comfort/denial in the odds which said Ace:spade: X was long.
Any comments?
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Posted Tue Aug 30, 2005 6:50 am GMT by ScanX
cant wait to have the absolute nuts to put your chips in the middle.
I play it the same as u...if he has it, he has it
Posted Tue Aug 30, 2005 9:24 am GMT by UrAteUp
Not having the highest card in a flush scares the bejesus out of me when I play. Not sure how I would played this hand if I were in your shoes. Most likely the same way you did. That all in raise might have scared me off of the pot though. Just not sure how I would have played it. I can see the No Guts No Glory approach that you took and ScanX said he would take but again that reraise might have scared me off.
Posted Tue Aug 30, 2005 9:39 am GMT by Skribbles
Can't be laying down K high flushes. I don't have anything behind this but I'm guessing that if you always laydown that hand, you're missing alot of money in the long run.
Posted Tue Aug 30, 2005 9:44 am GMT by zinn0
I'm with Skribbles and Scan on this. I'm playing my King high flushes all day. If someone has the Ace, I guess I'm just going to pay them off.
Posted Tue Aug 30, 2005 9:55 am GMT by Loonbat
Agree with the above, unless you have an insane read.
Posted Tue Aug 30, 2005 9:44 pm GMT by TheSalche
yeah tough break ... you were going broke on this one
this is why calling with Kx suited is a bad idea
but since you were in the BB i suppose you didnt have any choice :D
Posted Wed Aug 31, 2005 3:59 am GMT by Muck
I think the decision to lose all my money happened on the flop when I called that 50 and went for the draw. Because, if I hit a spade on the turn (which happened) I didn’t want to lead out (damn EP) with a smaller probe bet just in case he had the Ace and the odds I was giving were good for a draw. But the bet was so large that when I looked back at my stack I was pot committed/getting good odds to call an all-in.
There’s just something about flushes using both hole cards that I can’t help but overrate. With a 4 flush on the board I like J-A depending on the table, with a 3 flush I’ll often play 8-T as well. Like I said this is very dependent on the circumstances.
Yep TheSalche I wouldn’t normally play Kx suited in this situation if I wasn’t the BB or SB. If the flop didn’t have a flush draw or two pair I’d be happy to fold it should anyone bet.
Posted Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:04 am GMT by Loonbat
A king high flush (with 3 on the board) will always pay off the ace high flush ... sort of like the second best set on a flop will always pay off the top set. When only one hand (Axs) is beating you, the second nuts doesn't even make me hesitate when betting.
Posted Fri Sep 02, 2005 7:33 pm GMT by [psyonix]
I'll go with it every time. I've only been beat in that situation a couple times.
Posted Fri Sep 02, 2005 7:57 pm GMT by Skribbles
I don't think I'd ever lay down a flush with only 3 suited on the board.
Of course I play limit and it can only cost so much.
Edit: Of course with the exception of trips or 2 pair on the board.
Posted Tue Sep 06, 2005 9:54 pm GMT by [psyonix]
| psyonix wrote: | | I'll go with it every time. I've only been beat in that situation a couple times. |
Example:
PokerStars Game #2514969067: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) -
2005/09/06 - 20:18:11 (ET)
Table 'Anser' Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: rdog16 ($31.30 in chips)
Seat 2: fillossofer ($14.45 in chips)
Seat 3: Y2BNE1 ($21.10 in chips)
Seat 4: Dr. Dx ($22.05 in chips)
Seat 5: psyonix ($87.20 in chips)
Seat 6: Mogs31 ($86.20 in chips)
Mogs31: posts small blind $0.25
rdog16: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to psyonix  
fillossofer: folds
Y2BNE1: folds
Dr. Dx: folds
psyonix: raises $1 to $1.50
Mogs31: folds
rdog16: calls $1
*** FLOP ***   
rdog16: checks
psyonix: bets $2
rdog16: calls $2
*** TURN *** 
rdog16: checks
psyonix: bets $2.50
rdog16: raises $4 to $6.50
psyonix: raises $4 to $10.50
rdog16: calls $4
*** RIVER *** 
rdog16: bets $17.30 and is all-in
psyonix: calls $17.30
*** SHOW DOWN ***
rdog16: shows   (a flush, Queen high)
psyonix: shows (a flush, King high)
psyonix collected $59.85 from pot
rdog16 leaves the table
Posted Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:31 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
Sometimes you have a great hand, you're correct to put money in the middle, and your opponent happens to have a better hand. If you lay down King high flushes continuously, you have a major leak in your game. Agree with my comrades... just a tough break that doesn't happen all the often.
Posted Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:48 pm GMT by supafrey
Re-raise the flop to weed out the flush draws, in my opinion. Aggressive play, but I stick with it a faaaaair bit.
Posted Wed Sep 07, 2005 3:15 am GMT by Muck
| psyonix wrote: | | psyonix wrote: | | I'll go with it every time. I've only been beat in that situation a couple times. |
Example:
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That’s a little different with a 4 flush on the board. Although it does illustrate the point that you can’t get too caught up in fear of the ace.
You represented strength all the way through and he was happy to call you, then when the fourth spade hit he bets out big. Does he have the ace or would he make that move with a Ten (or lower).
I certainly didn’t put him on the hand he had.
| supafrey wrote: | | Re-raise the flop to weed out the flush draws, in my opinion. Aggressive play, but I stick with it a faaaaair bit. |
Why would I remove the other flush draws if they’re behind me and should pay me off when I/we hit? Wouldn’t it be best to keep as many people in the hand as possible too since it would help my implied odds.
Posted Wed Sep 07, 2005 11:54 am GMT by supafrey
Your implied odds are irrelevant if there's a nut flush draw out there. Personally, I prefer to raise or re-raise on the flop with the 2nd or third nut flush draw, or even with a shitty low one. This can work out well for a number of reasons, but is fairly table specific. To facilitate discussion I will say the pros and cons of it...
Pros:
- Can force the Ace high flush to fold their hand
- Can force a "made" hand to fold despite winning (Fold equity is the word for it, isn't it?)
- Can take the pot down right there, entirely, saving you the trouble of a sticky situation. If you don't know whether you can call an all-in on the river with the k flush, it's just a loss of money to continue past this point. Decide immediately if a K high flush will be enough for you to bet out - DON'T bleed small chunks just to pussy out.
Cons:
- A reraise over the top can often make you fold. Personally I don't this is a huge risk though, especially at semi-low stakes.
- May force smaller flush to fold, but may not. Alot of small connected cards players follow the super system style of wanting to crack aces, and may mistakenly put you on those and call.
- May not force the Ace high flush to fold - is the bet big enough to give them improper odds to call?
Like I said - It's not necessarily the right or the wrong play, but definitely another option that people haven't mentioned before.
Posted Thu Sep 08, 2005 4:40 am GMT by Muck
Oh don’t get me wrong I would probably go for a semi-bluff if it was shorter handed and I had a weaker flush. But with a King high 2 card flush I perhaps get over confident and choose to play it slow then fast. I.e. If I hit on the Turn I’ll assume I’m ahead and put out a bet that offers bad odds to someone on a lone Ace.
Although if you run into someone with a made nut flush things can get painful 
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