Posted Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:31 pm GMT by howzit
Trying to teach my roommate how to play more aggressively so here's one i told him to do (with his money)
1-2NL party (6 max)
Him (CO):$370 2  4
villain (UTG+1): $250 i think.
family pot.
Flop: ($12) Qs 8h 3s
villain bets $7, hero makes it $21. Villain takes a very long time to call.
Turn: ($56) Qx
villain checks, hero bets pot. . . .
you like?
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Posted Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:34 pm GMT by Dave B
nope.
Posted Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:45 pm GMT by 1988 TR
I don't, mainly because you have a good draw that I would prefer seening the river for. If he has a Q, he is coming over the top & your hand is over. Check & if a spade comes, that Q is paying you off.
On the other hand, his check signals weakness, so your pot bet may be enough to push out medium pocket pair or AK. Or he could be slow playing a monster. 
I would prefer seeing a free turn.
Posted Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:46 pm GMT by Soup_dog
your representing that you have the queen and just hit a set. The only way he calls is if he has a Q. I would probably bet about $20, like I was "just asking for a call". He would be just as likely to laydown against the $20 as he would to the pot size bet with less risk.
Anyway, I see what you are trying to accomplish, I just don't see the need to risk a pot size bet. If he has the queen your toast.
Posted Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:53 pm GMT by 1988 TR
The other thing I would consider is he might believe you have a Queen when one hits, but when another queen hits, they start believing you a little less.
Posted Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:00 pm GMT by howzit
obviously if he calls my hand is done.
I'm obviously representing KQ, QJ here and when the guy took so long to call on the flop, his hand range went from top pair to maaybe a spade draw or a very weak queen, pair + FD also is very possible here. A good aggressive player would usually just move it in w/a pair + FD on the flop (in my games they do) but it wasn't out of the question from him to have a suited connector w/an 8.
So, when i raise the flop it says Qx and my plan was to obviously bet a spade or check behind on any blank. but when teh queen came, it makes my hand more interesting. Now, I don't have to take a free card. So the pot bet is narrowing my perceived hand range to a queen w/a broadway kicker. My guess is if he is on the spade draw, he'll dump. If he does have a queen, i'll have 7 or 8 outs.
on to the river. . . .
the timer is about to run out before he calls. this leaves him $180 in the back.
River: $150ish, J
he leads for $80. . .
Posted Wed Aug 31, 2005 1:41 pm GMT by Soup_dog
Your in deep doodoo. He doesnt have a low spade flush since he called those bets. He has the nuts or very close to it. I would fold.
This situation is why I think a smaller turn bet would have been better. You would have lost less to an unfavorable river. I think he would have been just as likely to laydown to a mid potsized bet as to a pot sized bet.
Posted Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:04 pm GMT by Loonbat
Calling opponent for QJ ...
Posted Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:17 pm GMT by Soup_dog
| Loonbat wrote: | | Calling opponent for QJ ... |
Huh? I don't understand what you are saying.
Posted Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:24 pm GMT by Skribbles
| Soup_dog wrote: | | Loonbat wrote: | | Calling opponent for QJ ... |
Huh? I don't understand what you are saying. |
I think he is saying opponent is holding QJ for the full boat.
Posted Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:40 pm GMT by Loonbat
| Skribbles wrote: | | Soup_dog wrote: | | Loonbat wrote: | | Calling opponent for QJ ... |
Huh? I don't understand what you are saying. |
I think he is saying opponent is holding QJ for the full boat. |
Correct - 1st or 2nd best flush is also an option.
Posted Wed Aug 31, 2005 3:16 pm GMT by 1988 TR
I think calling at 3-1 is a no brainer. He could have a whole range of things from a boat to a higher flush - Hell, he could even have J10 or J9.
But I have a flush, so I would call the 230 in the pot for 80 bucks.
Posted Wed Aug 31, 2005 3:30 pm GMT by howzit
ok, this is an auto-call here 230:80. but i don't like it.
First off, i lied about hte action on this hand. Sorry. I wanted to ask you guys about what you would do if a semi-bluff raise didn't work out on the flop. The flop bet went exactly as I mentioned, but when the queen came on the turn, in reality I checked behind.
So the pot is ~$70 and the J rivered and he lead for $45. I called. he shows 89 for the better flush. he did have a pair + FD on the flop so basically having me drawing dead BUT after the hand i thought about firing a second barrel. The correct play at the time was to check behind on teh turn and take the free card, but hte better play would've been to pot the turn. Calling $55+ on teh turn when his two pair/trip draw being counterfeited is a lot harder. He may make that "bad" call there and I'd have to fire that third "value bet" on teh river but it's a lot better than calling off $ money on the river when i'm pretty sure i'm beat.
Just some thoughts. The actual perfect play i think would be to call the flop, raise the turn and bluff the river.
Just my thoughts on this hand.
Posted Wed Aug 31, 2005 3:54 pm GMT by 1988 TR
A poker player lied???? ahhhhhh
lol
Anyway, it turned out that a pot bluff on the turn may have worked in this case (but remember, you are making that decision after seeing the hand play out). But he also may have called (I actually think he would have). And if he calls that bet and rivers a flush, I surely don't think you are chasing him away then - and the hand just keeps costing you more $$.
Posted Wed Aug 31, 2005 3:54 pm GMT by howzit
BTW, my roommate was super pissed after this hand. don't do this w/other people's $. haha, luckily i got him to make an overcall and he got hte money back.
Posted Wed Aug 31, 2005 3:56 pm GMT by 1988 TR
| howzit wrote: | | BTW, my roommate was super pissed after this hand. don't do this w/other people's $. haha, luckily i got him to make an overcall and he got hte money back. |
Tell him to rub some dirt on it and get back out there. lol
I hate playing with other people's money. Ungrateful bastages.
Posted Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:00 pm GMT by howzit
| 1988 TR wrote: | | And if he calls that bet and rivers a flush, I surely don't think you are chasing him away then - and the hand just keeps costing you more $$. |
no way i bet when the flush comes. i'll be happy to check it down.
Posted Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:02 pm GMT by 1988 TR
| howzit wrote: | | 1988 TR wrote: | | And if he calls that bet and rivers a flush, I surely don't think you are chasing him away then - and the hand just keeps costing you more $$. |
no way i bet when the flush comes. i'll be happy to check it down. |
Yah, but he would (he did anyway).
Posted Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:23 pm GMT by howzit
So as is, after the turn check, i can bluff the turn and a blank river? i think i can w/thsoe stack sizes.
Posted Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:32 pm GMT by 1988 TR
| howzit wrote: | | So as is, after the turn check, i can bluff the turn and a blank river? i think i can w/thsoe stack sizes. |
You can, would work on some, but not on others (Hell, I bet 270 on the turn the other day at 10/20 with 3k behind me with top pair Queens and someone called with 54 since they hit a 5)..... Plus you are working with someone else's money.... Not sure how far you want to go down that rabbit hole - Betting with a hand that in quite a few scenarios, you have no outs (something like 15 possible hands where you are drawing dead).
Posted Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:43 pm GMT by howzit
| 1988 TR wrote: | | howzit wrote: | | So as is, after the turn check, i can bluff the turn and a blank river? i think i can w/thsoe stack sizes. |
You can, would work on some, but not on others (Hell, I bet 270 on the turn the other day at 10/20 with 3k behind me with top pair Queens and someone called with 54 since they hit a 5)..... Plus you are working with someone else's money.... Not sure how far you want to go down that rabbit hole - Betting with a hand that in quite a few scenarios, you have no outs (something like 15 possible hands where you are drawing dead). |
yes, putting money in dead is fun, especially when it isn't yours!
ok, this is move is player dependant and I think it has the highest success rate against weak/tight or TAG players. Your run of the mill calling station/first thinking players will most likely call the turn and drop the river.
On a side note, i've been playing 1-2NL to work on these types of plays and been using my roommate as a guinea pig. It's been mixed so far as this hand shows, but in general, it has been very good for my poker and hopefully his as well.
Posted Wed Aug 31, 2005 4:48 pm GMT by 1988 TR
Yah, defnitely player dependent. Some players won't let anything go.... Other's can't fold quick enough.
The Q is a wierd card.... Sometimes when you are running a bluff & the top card on board pairs, they tend to not believe you anymore.... (works great when you do have the Q!!).
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