"Pot Control" in NL cash games |
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Posted Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:12 pm GMT by Phil14312
As I've said here before, NL cash games are probably my weakest game. I am looking to improve them. One aspect I've heard mentioned from Howzit (I think) is pot control. Can all the experienced NL cash game players explain this concept, maybe give some example hands.
I understand that it probably involves playing smaller pots when you think you have the best hand, but the hand isn't a monster.
The problem is I don't know how to apply it. Bet the pot giving draws bad odds, but that makes the pot pretty big. Check and give a free card? I guess I'm just asking for some common situations and tactics you use to keep the pot small and manageable.
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Posted Wed Sep 21, 2005 10:52 pm GMT by suitedaces84
The major key is to increase your aggression as the hand goes on. Example: you're in the BB with A  7 , you get a free flop. You flop top pair, no draws and are scared of being dominated. You check/call a reasonable bet on the flop, then donk any turn (folding to a raise) then bet the river (folding to a raise depending on size and player). This represents a stronger hand than you have. As a result, you will not get bluff raised or even raised by dominating hands very often. And when you do get raised it's an easy fold.
You can use the same line with mid-pair when you believe your oppoent missed the flop and in a lot of other circumstances. You can also use it when a scare card hits. If you check, you know things will get insane, reguardless of where you stand. A bet here should keep your oppoent from bluffing.
On the flip side it's good to build pots with draws even if you're not getting value directly from it. The misrepresentation of your hand and the reverse implied odds you give your oppoent should make it worth it.
Posted Thu Sep 22, 2005 2:10 pm GMT by howzit
In no limit play, any street can be played for the one's entire stack. This is probably what draws us to big-bet poker. Often we see an overbet on an early street getting called when both players have a big hand. eg. AA vs. KK preflop or on the flop. Set vs. set. This is the basic strategy that we can all understand just by watching a hand develop from a third-party perspective. Rarely will u see a winning hand get called an all-in by something as weak as TPTK IF the pot is relatively small compared to the bet size. (disclaimer: beginning players will call off their chips with nothing but top pair but that's not what we'll see on a daily basis.)
Pot control: the size of the pot relative to the size of your stack will guide future bet sizes and decisions. Because any street can be played for all the chips doesn't mean that it will. Sometimes, we bet more then we need to w/made hands, or betting when we should be check our draws. After making a mistake in an early street, situations come up where hands are being overplayed and risking a chunk of your stack w/out the goods. This even applys for bluffs where by betting too much on an early street, an opponent will become pot-committed w/their marginal hands.
Anecdotal examples:
Bluffing:
Villain: $120 (SB)
Me: covers (BB)
folded to villain who limps w/66 and I raise on the button w/xx to $8. He calls, Pot is $16.
board is 2-3-3. checked to me. I pot, he calls.
Turn: J ($48 )
he checks, i pot again. he thinks and calls. pot is now $144 and villain now has around $50 left.
River: K ($144) he checks, you put him all-in, he makes a crying call getting 4:1.
Change the preflop bet to $6.
Pot is $12.
he checks, you bet $7. he calls.
Turn: ($26)
he checks, you bet $20. he calls leaving him $85 behind.
River: ($56)
he checks. U can push now w/better fold equity.
Draws
Hero: $1000
Villain: $1000
villain who is straightforward preflop opens for $15, one caller, hero calls big blind w/AcTc.
Flop($45): 9-8-6, two clubs. hero leads for $25. Villain raises to $90. Hero calls.
Turn: 3x ($225)
Villain bets $200, leaving $700 behind. Hero calls.
River: ($625) 2c.
Hero bets $300. villain calls w/top set,making hero's turn call EV neutral.
Make the stacks $500, and hero's EV is shot on the turn w/a bloated pot. If he check calls the flop. Pot will be around $110-140 leaving both w/over $400 to play with. Enough to get equity on teh river.
Make the stacks $200 and hero should be all-in on the flop.
Made hands
Starts w/$200 each.
hero: AJo.
villain: xx.
two limpers, hero makes it $10. CO calls, one limper calls, one fold. $30 in the pot.
Flop: ($30) A-9-2, two spades.
limper checks, hero bets $20, CO calls, limper calls.
Turn: ($90) 3s.
Limper checks, hero checks, CO bets $50. limper folds. CO now has $120 behind. if hero calls, he'll have to call any river bet. he can't raise because worse hands will fold and better hands will call. Also, calling then folding the river is spewing chips.
try this again:
Flop: ($30) A-9-2, two spades.
checked around.
Turn: ($30) 3 spades.
limper checks, hero bets $20, CO calls.
River: ($70)
hero bets $35, CO calls. if CO raises, this becomes an easy fold.
edited to add: these pots don't need to be small. they need to be small RELATIVE to your stack.
Posted Thu Sep 22, 2005 3:15 pm GMT by ScanX
I agree with what howzit says about reducing the size of raises and bets on bluffs or even on made hands.
I would add that you have to be consistant in those bettings...having always the same "betting pattern" on bluff, semi-bluff or made hands is important.
for example blinds 2/4, if I open-raise it will ALWAYS be $15. and if I get one caller I will ALWAYS bet $20 on flop whether I missed it, hit pair or set.
About the last comment of howzit on made hands (AJ flopping Axx 2 spades and checking the flop to control turn and river) :
It also depends on who you play:
if u know that the guy who calls your preflop raise is known to call the bet on flop and then almost invariably gives up on turn if he doesnt have the goods, continuation bet is better (gives more info)
if the guy is a calling station, waiting for the turn to make a bet is then probably the better solution
I'm also more in favoir of the continuation bet on flop and turn. Sometimes the bet on turn will make better hands than yours fold because they get scared of the flush as u sort of represent it.
But this kind of hand (Top pair out of position with possible flush draw) is really one of the toughest to handle once the 3 to the flush hits.
Posted Thu Sep 22, 2005 3:36 pm GMT by howzit
i play the opposite of Scan. I will play the same hand differently to "mix things up".
The choice between playing consistent (like Scan) or playing the same hand differntly (like me) is a personal choice and something I have no interest in discussing. Point of pot-control is whatever style u choose, u need to be able to manage the pot-size so that future streets will be played more optimally whatever line u take.
Posted Thu Sep 22, 2005 5:21 pm GMT by ScanX
| howzit wrote: | i play the opposite of Scan. I will play the same hand differently to "mix things up".
The choice between playing consistent (like Scan) or playing the same hand differntly (like me) is a personal choice and something I have no interest in discussing. Point of pot-control is whatever style u choose, u need to be able to manage the pot-size so that future streets will be played more optimally whatever line u take. |
ok that wasnt the point of the discussion...I just expressed a side note in this "style of betting" thread.
what about the rest of my reply by the way ?
Posted Thu Sep 22, 2005 6:06 pm GMT by howzit
| ScanX wrote: |
I would add that you have to be consistant in those bettings...having always the same "betting pattern" on bluff, semi-bluff or made hands is important.
for example blinds 2/4, if I open-raise it will ALWAYS be $15. and if I get one caller I will ALWAYS bet $20 on flop whether I missed it, hit pair or set.
About the last comment of howzit on made hands (AJ flopping Axx 2 spades and checking the flop to control turn and river) :
It also depends on who you play:
if u know that the guy who calls your preflop raise is known to call the bet on flop and then almost invariably gives up on turn if he doesnt have the goods, continuation bet is better (gives more info)
if the guy is a calling station, waiting for the turn to make a bet is then probably the better solution
I'm also more in favoir of the continuation bet on flop and turn. Sometimes the bet on turn will make better hands than yours fold because they get scared of the flush as u sort of represent it.
But this kind of hand (Top pair out of position with possible flush draw) is really one of the toughest to handle once the 3 to the flush hits. |
interesting about same open and same continuation. I've never played this like and don't play against players who have this approach to. This is because mostly I play against weak calling stations and like to charge full amount for preflop. Also, once I pick up a few big pots or stack a player off, a lot of weaker players don't want to enter a pot w/me, giving me a higher fold equity as well as an easier time hand reading. On the flip side, if I don't have win those key big pots, I get zero respect and have weak players playing back at me a higher frequency.
Betting a bluff, semi-bluff, and made hand the same is important, I'm in complete agreement. Being rigid in your betting pattern, betting pot w/a bluff, betting half pot w/an underpair, betting 2/3 pot w/top pair is a guarantee to go broke against good players. You say bet the whole range of hands the same way (I agree). I say bet the same hand differently.
Scan, I'm not a fan of your style mostly because i think it leaves a lot of money on the table, but it's effecient and a consistent winner.
As for being OOP w/top pair on a drawy board, hand reading has a high premium.
Posted Thu Sep 22, 2005 6:57 pm GMT by ScanX
| howzit wrote: |
Scan, I'm not a fan of your style mostly because i think it leaves a lot of money on the table |
I dont understand that part.
do you mean my betting style ? or something else ?
if it's betting style, I dont understand why since they can never tell whether I'm bluffing or not
if it's something else, please explain
Posted Thu Sep 22, 2005 7:32 pm GMT by howzit
somebody way better than me explained that money is made in betting/calling/raising/folding in hands where you can establish the "price" of the opponents hand. To put it simply, establish a break-even point, a bet that would he consider 50/50.
If you want a call, bet less. If you want a fold, bet more. Pretty simple right? of course, this is about as elementary as could be, but it's helped me find extra dollars. Some nights i'm playing very fast and I find the break-even price much higher. I can get opponents to call big overbets on streets because of the way I may have played a hand earlier in the night or the night before. I can also bluff somebody playing a hand almost identical to the way i played a monster a few hours ago. To me, it gives me a few more options at the table, WHEN I'M FOCUSED. I can get guys calling me down w/third pair. And because of the style i play, I can get the money in easily when I do flop a hand. But when i'm not on my A game to the table, i can spew chips very, very fast.
On the nights I'm playing tight-aggressive and playing solid poker, the price is usually lower. I'll rarely find a spot to overbet and if I do bet pot on a later street, it's usually monster. And my money doesn't find itself in marginal situations. But I'll still bet my hands differently so that I won't reveal the strength of my hand unless i want to or have to. It kind of depends on who's sitting at hte table and what style would work best.
Your style of play is great for masking hands, but I find it very hard to break players or play big pots unless it's against a maniac or somebody showing up w/ a second best hand.
I prefer chipping up throughout the night w/out having to play big pots w/out good hands. But when I do make a big hand, i want the option of clocking somebody upside the head for not believing me.
Posted Thu Sep 22, 2005 8:05 pm GMT by ScanX
well you're assuming the opponent actually pays attention to what other players are doing...I dunno where u play, but on PP dont expect anyone (or at least not many people) to remember what you did 15 mins ago.
also I said my betting is always the same preflop and on flop, there are still 2 betting rounds behind where I can get more creative.
and on final note : u mentionned playing solid poker, I'm not sure if u said that for me, implying I only play "premium" hands (or close to that), but believe me, I'm not the nut peddler that people tend to think I'm...at least not at 6max :)
Posted Thu Sep 22, 2005 8:16 pm GMT by supafrey
Scanx is so freaking defensive about his nut peddling lately it's insane.
Interest posts, though, guys.
Posted Wed Sep 28, 2005 9:29 am GMT by dakielbasa
This is an interesting post... however, this looks like a strategy to be used against the better players out there. If you are playing against good players, your table selection is bad and you are not making much money. Playing against bad players ... 1 of the commandments is not to give a free card unless you must. Slow playing is a no no unless 1 of 3 circumstances are there ... 1) guy to left of you will bet, not guy 4 seats to left... the guy TO YOUR LEFT 2) Your opponents are drawing to lesser hands that will be beat 3) I dont remember...
However, I can see how this may apply to bad players as knowing your bet will end up costing you too much if you are bluffing, but betting more is the way to go to gain information, read peopls hands etc.
As you can see, I'm more of a bet aggressive person... I believe in reading people's hands and then believing whether to bluff or not
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