Posted Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:12 pm GMT by Dave B
I hand only played 20 or so hands, so no reads yet, i am cby_player, bad laydown or did I save 4 bets? It pissed me off when the turn raiser didnt at least call the last bet, he claimed to have a str8flush draw, but I dont know if I buy that.
Table Bad Beat Jackpot #1073542 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: akrabazzi ( $117 )
Seat 2: poomachine ( $160 )
Seat 3: hawkeye70 ( $98 )
Seat 5: TyBurger ( $177 )
Seat 6: cby_player ( $184 )
Seat 7: soetdog ( $168.50 )
Seat 8: OODA_looper ( $134.50 )
Seat 9: jquin4 ( $187.50 )
Seat 10: talon524 ( $177.75 )
hawkeye70 posts small blind $1.
>You have options at Table 68019 Table!.
TyBurger is sitting out.
cby_player posts big blind $3.
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to cby_player  
branden71 has joined the table.
TyBurger has left the table.
soetdog folds.
OODA_looper raises $6.
jquin4 folds.
talon524 calls $6.
poomachine folds.
>You have options at Table 68019 Table!.
hawkeye70 folds.
cby_player raises $6.
OODA_looper calls $3.
talon524 calls $3.
** Dealing Flop **   
cby_player bets $3.
OODA_looper calls $3.
>You have options at Table 68019 Table!.
talon524 calls $3.
** Dealing Turn ** 
Ice_man2006 has joined the table.
cby_player checks.
OODA_looper bets $6.
talon524 raises $12.
>You have options at Table 68019 Table!.
>You have options at Table 68019 Table!.
cby_player folds.
OODA_looper calls $6.
** Dealing River ** 
OODA_looper checks.
talon524 bets $6.
OODA_looper raises $12.
>You have options at Table 68019 Table!.
talon524: we could have had something good here
talon524 folds.
OODA_looper does not show cards.
OODA_looper wins $75.50
i had 8 9 hearts
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Posted Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:20 pm GMT by suitedaces84
There's something fishy about that hand (collusion wise). I fold that turn everytime vs unknowns.
Posted Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:41 pm GMT by Ninja
Yes, it is strange that he would bet out on the river, then fold to a re-raise when he's getting 13-1 pot odds...
Posted Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:48 pm GMT by suitedaces84
| Ninja wrote: | | Yes, it is strange that he would bet out on the river, then fold to a re-raise when he's getting 13-1 pot odds... |
I agree. He would have to be a moron to think he could buy pot with a big flop vs an EP raise and BB 3-bet. Either the river folder is completely brainless (a very real possibility) or they're colluding.
Posted Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:00 am GMT by Dave B
As time wore on, I could see that the turn raiser was an idiot. What I walked into was a pissing match between these two. I know that could be cover for collusion too, but one left even, the other busted out w/ nothing. So if they were cheating, they werent too good at it.
Give the fact that these guys would go after each other w/ nothing, I could have easily had the other player beat w/ my overpair.
I would likely lay them down again under similar circumstances, much like NL, it is important to pick your spots before getting in too deep. I dont mind laying down winners, it is better than calling a lot more bets and being wrong.
Posted Thu Oct 13, 2005 11:54 am GMT by supafrey
With the second jack I think it is very possible you were losing, before that I doubt you were.
Posted Thu Oct 13, 2005 7:18 pm GMT by 1988 TR
I think you might have been beat on the flop.
In any case, I think that is a great fold on the turn. There are so many straight and 2 pair possiblities out there. I think you may have been drawing dead.
It is possible the winner had AK, but I hate calling all those bets with that kind of hope. Talon's aggressiveness took you right out of the hand - Bad play by him as if he did have that draw, he wants you in, not out.
Posted Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:20 am GMT by Aves
I think it was a big mistake not to bet the turn. There is NO reason to think you do not have the best hand. It's also a cardinal mistake to give your opponents a free card (if they so choose to take it) on a draw heavy board (3 straight cards and a flush draw). In limit holdem, just like any other form of poker, you should not play passively and be afraid of monsters that probly aren't there. Personally, I'm only folding if I bet the turn, and then it's 3 bets back to me.
Also, I don't see why collusion was brought up. Talon's remark about having a straight flush draw is consistent with his river play. I don't think he's gonna win at showdown with 9 high, so he is forced to bet if he wants any chance at winning the pot. When he gets raised, he pretty much has to fold unless he wants to try a river bluff reraise - and I think he realized that probly wouldn't work. Even getting 13-1 pot odds, calling with 9 high is a leak I think.
Posted Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:36 am GMT by Dave B
I do play more passive after the flop-at least in these games. When there are a ton of chasers, AA is just a pair. I save my big guns for str8s, sets or flushes.
My intent was to just call down. After I raised preflop, only certain hands are going to call me. With that board, 2 pair is likely, a set, str8.
I was happy to call 2 big bets, but didnt want to get raised and have to call 3. When the other dude raised, I knew I was in for at least 3 more bets to showdown.
Posted Tue Oct 18, 2005 11:45 am GMT by suitedaces84
| Aves wrote: | | There is NO reason to think you do not have the best hand. |
Just think for a second about the hands villian probably has. There aren't a whole lot of them that AA beats. AK and QQ are the only ones I can think of. This is a terrible flop for AA. When you add in the other guy you're almost never ahead and you're drawing to very few outs that are usually for a split pot.
| Aves wrote: | | Also, I don't see why collusion was brought up. |
Because it's incredibly stupid to think you can think you can win this pot without a showdown. If the board was something like 7 6 2, I'd say semi-bluff away. But with the current board, a huge pot and two players who obviously have strong hands there's no way he's picking this pot up without a showdown. Dave said the guy was an idiot so that settles it. But if he wasn't an idiot a play like this would lead me to believe collusion was going on.
Posted Tue Oct 18, 2005 3:43 pm GMT by Aves
Dave said,
| Quote: | | I do play more passive after the flop-at least in these games. When there are a ton of chasers, AA is just a pair. |
I'm not sure what you mean by this. 3/6 games online in my experience tend to have some pretty good aggressive players, and passive play will get you nowhere. Even if AA is just a pair, you should still bet to protect what is probably the best hand. I'm not saying to cap the turn, but a bet is definitely in order.
Then you said,
| Quote: | | My intent was to just call down. After I raised preflop, only certain hands are going to call me. With that board, 2 pair is likely, a set, str8. |
I think calling down is almost never a good play unless your heads up out of position in a way ahead/way behind situation. Otherwise, you should be betting/raising for the most part to define your hand and have your opponents define theirs. By checking the flop, you have invited others to bluff at you if they want. You can't get a solid read on what your opponents have and are thus stuck in a very difficult position. I would rather bet the turn, and then if i get raised and reraised, fold with confidence that I am behind.
I don't see how you can say only certain hands can call on you on this flop. They can have virtually anything, especially on such a draw heavy board. With 10~11 small bets on the flop, your opponents can call a bet with a Q, a flush draw, ANY pair (getting 10~11:1 with 5 hopefully live outs), and some will even call with as little as an inside straight draw. To check the turn thinking they might have a 2 pair/set/straight is very weak in my opinion. In addition, you still have outs to the nut straight, trip As, or a better 2 pair on the chance they do have those hands.
suitedaces84 said
| Quote: | | Just think for a second about the hands villian probably has. |
I've stated above what hands opponents can call with on the flop. On the turn, its difficult to say for sure what OODA is betting mainly due to Dave's check. Hands that Dave beats that he could be betting are AK, KQ, QQ, QJ, QT, AJ, AT, suited variations of the previous, Axh, K9(h). Talon could be raising AK, KQ, QQ, get Dave(who we know has a better hand) out in the process and get a free showdown vs talon. This would be a pretty advanced play that I don't think is that uncommon at 3/6 online poker.
suitedaces84 said
| Quote: | | Because it's incredibly stupid to think you can think you can win this pot without a showdown. |
Talon was checked to on the river and he's holding 9high. His bet is not that unreasonable for someone who wants a CHANCE at winning the pot and only has to work 1-10 for it to be profitable. He is against a sole opponent who could have been drawing on such a board. Furthermore, the J on the river could be used as a scare card if OODA had something like QT. I don't see the river bet/fold as incredibly stupid as you state it is.
Posted Tue Oct 18, 2005 3:52 pm GMT by suitedaces84
I was talking about the turn raise.
Posted Tue Oct 18, 2005 4:03 pm GMT by Aves
I know. And this was my response to it
Aves said
| Quote: | | I've stated above what hands opponents can call with on the flop. On the turn, its difficult to say for sure what OODA is betting mainly due to Dave's check. Hands that Dave beats that he could be betting are AK, KQ, QQ, QJ, QT, AJ, AT, suited variations of the previous, Axh, K9(h). Talon could be raising AK, KQ, QQ, get Dave(who we know has a better hand) out in the process and get a free showdown vs talon. This would be a pretty advanced play that I don't think is that uncommon at 3/6 online poker. |
Posted Tue Oct 18, 2005 4:21 pm GMT by Dave B
When I say I am passive, that isnt my style. But there are times when I dont want to fold, but dont want to mix things up either. AA on a scary board is a great example of a time like this.
Or, AK 4-5 callers in LP flop A or K and bet the flop, bet the turn, I might check the river. If they are just chasing a draw, they are going to fold anyway, if 2-3 are calling w/ 2nd or 3rd pair, they have a good chance that one hit. By checking, I also get to see the crap that they play by checking the hand history and use this against them later.
Sometimes I will even mock them for calling down w/ junk against a preflop raise and A on the flop. Later on, this will work for my when I raise preflop w/ 66 77 88 and represent AK on the flop.
I think the check raise on the river cemented that fact that I did muck a loser, but I was pissed off that I didnt get to see a showdown.
One more thing-my reads are usually solid. I am not afraid to lay down top pair top kicker or an overpair. Sometimes getting out w/ 3 small bets is pretty cheap. That is nothing to make back.
Posted Tue Oct 18, 2005 5:39 pm GMT by Aves
I've asked 3 other winning players, and they all recommended betting the turn. Allow me to pose a few hypotheticals to show why I think it's best to bet.
Given the same preflop action, if the board came 9h Th Jc. You bet and are called 2 opponents. Will you check if a blank hits the turn? I certainly would hope not. You are allowing your opponents to take a free card on a very draw heavy board. If you think a call on this board means that one or more of your opponents has 2 pair/set/straight more often than a flush draw, straight draw, inside straight draw, pair, or overcards, then I think you should purchase pokertracker or some similar software if you don't already have it, and look at your past hands yourself. Don't take my word for it, ask other winning players.
You bet Aces in this position to protect what is probably the best hand and to gain information. Checking fails to do either. You cannot be sure that a bet after you have checked means they have a great hand. Now, it also depends on how willing your opponents are to bluff, how aggressive they are, etc.
Dave said
| Quote: | | AK 4-5 callers in LP flop A or K and bet the flop, bet the turn, I might check the river. If they are just chasing a draw, they are going to fold anyway, if 2-3 are calling w/ 2nd or 3rd pair, they have a good chance that one hit. |
I completely agree, that depending on the texture of the board, I might check the river also. But this is not the same as the situation described above. The board is draw heavy on the flop and turn, and you may be giving your opponents free chances to hit their draw. In your example, there are no cards left to come. The hands are set. Now, all you have to determine is if betting will win a bet more than 50% of the time. This is a completely different excercise and situation.
Dave said
| Quote: | | I think the check raise on the river cemented that fact that I did muck a loser, but I was pissed off that I didnt get to see a showdown. |
I think you're thinking here is flawwed. By your statement, you seem to justify checking the turn because you probably would have lost the hand. This is what they call being results oriented. This is also supported by the fact that you were "pissed off that you didn't get to see a showdown". The showdown does not matter. What matters is making the correct play throughout the hand.
Furthermore, using some simple hand reading, it seems that OODA_looper hit his J on the river to improve his hand. If he had a made hand on the turn (2pair/set/straight), he would have 3-bet it. Again, on such a draw heavy board, you must play your hands fast because if your opponent is drawing (in this case talon), then you will not get any bets in on the river when he misses, and will probly get too many bets in when he improves. Therefore, the correctly play is to 3-bet the turn if your hand is set.
He doesn't, and he goes for the checkraise on the river. I think there is a high chance he has a J. Probly QJ or AJ, maybe suited. So instead of mucking a loser, I'm quite confident you were ahead the whole time and had more than your fair share of equity in the pot to continute playing the hand, and playing it strongly for that matter.
Posted Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:46 pm GMT by Dave B
Do you really know some winning players I can bounce some other hand histories off of?
Posted Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:41 am GMT by Aves
Well I asked a few buddies I go to school with. But you can discuss hands like this on other websites that get a lot more traffic, other poker playing friends, or opponents at the casino, etc.
Posted Wed Oct 19, 2005 6:50 am GMT by Dave B
Thanks for the tip. 
Posted Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:21 pm GMT by Phil14312
Dave is funny.
Posted Wed Oct 19, 2005 2:16 pm GMT by suitedaces84
| Aves wrote: | | But you can discuss hands like this on other websites that get a lot more traffic, other poker playing friends, or opponents at the casino, etc. |
I love it. You'll get all kinds of great advice from oppoents at the casino. Good players always discuss the game with their oppoents (and that's you!!!!).
Now back to hand. I didn't say checking the turn was better than betting. I think they're very close. But folding when there are two big bets coming back at you is much better than calling two cold.
And here was my point about the moron raise on the turn: you hold 8  9 . There's a bunch of action preflop and on the flop. The board is K T J x (two hearts). Player 1 checks, player two bets you???
Posted Wed Oct 19, 2005 9:57 pm GMT by Aves
I don't know where you play or what limits you play, but when you get near the mid limits, not everyone at the table is a drunk, poker pro wannabe, or clueless idiot. There are some players that can play pretty well, and I would value their opinion. I personally wouldn't mind giving one of my opponents my advice or opinion on something if they asked me.
Now back to hand. I've taken the liberty of posting the hand on another reputable discussion board. I know even a reference to another website will get you flamed, so if you want the link, PM me. In summary, I got 4 replies saying to bet the turn. One said he was in almost the exact same situation, check/folded to 2 bets on the turn and saw that winner had AJ beating someone with QJ. I am quite sure betting the turn is the optimal play and no its not even close. If I had misclicked and pressed check on the turn, then I may fold to 2 bets; but that situation is irrelevant since I would almost always have bet.
I never went into what the other opponents should have done in the hand and concentrated mostly on Dave's action. However, to answer your question, I would probably just flat call on the turn. I think a much better play would have been to raise the flop to try and get a free card on the turn however.
Posted Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:13 pm GMT by Dave B
Where and what limit do you and your friends play?
As far as I am concerned, the river action verifies that it was a good laydown. If you cant lay down AA occasionally, you will not be successful long term.
Even if I was ahead, why get involved further here? I can pick a better spot. I dont mind laying down potential winners, it is about making money, not who has the bigger ego.
Where and what do I play?
2/4-10/20 online
4/8-15/30 at Canterbury
6/12-20/40 at Mirage
8/16-15/30 at Bellagio
5/10-10/20 in Chicago
Highest stakes at any smaller poker room around
Posted Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:14 pm GMT by tame_deuces
I don't know much about limit, but if opponents hold hands in the range I would assume an unknown to hold in a limit game considering preflop position and play, hero doesn't have much equity left in this pot.
I don't think calling 2 cold is justifiable as +EV here, not when you consider just how many more bets you may have to put into this hand.
It may be the hands I reckon as standard for an unknown are too conservative though.
The whole check/bet discussion thingy I leave to you limit people to discuss.
Posted Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:15 pm GMT by supafrey
Incidentally, Dave's e-penis does laps around the block, and the tip is slung over his shoulder.
Posted Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:27 pm GMT by suitedaces84
| Aves wrote: | | However, to answer your question, I would probably just flat call on the turn. I think a much better play would have been to raise the flop to try and get a free card on the turn however. |
So now you understand why collusion/the guy being an idiot was brought up, right?
Posted Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:31 am GMT by snoogins47
While I really want to turn this into an awesome shouting match, I'll be fairly quiet.
I think I bet this turn most of the time, but given the action, I like the fold.
Posted Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:33 am GMT by supafrey
so you're sorta agreeing with both sides..
Posted Thu Oct 20, 2005 2:17 am GMT by Aves
In response to Dave B:
| Quote: | | Where and what limit do you and your friends play? |
The ones I asked range from 1/2 limit to 5/10 limit.
| Quote: | | As far as I am concerned, the river action verifies that it was a good laydown. If you cant lay down AA occasionally, you will not be successful long term. |
I still stand firmly by my analysis in one of my responses above. To summarize, the "turn bettor, river check-raiser" most likely had a jack, not a made hand(2 pair/set/straight). The reason being, on such a draw heavy board, you should not slowplay as waiting til the river to get the bets against someone who might be on a draw will gain you no bets when he misses and get in many bets when he makes his draw. So in essence, I think you have it backwards. The river action actually shows you were ahead the whole time vs someone who likely had AJ or QJ and someone on a draw.
Your comment about laying down AA is a very general statement that is true, but it does not apply here. On this particular hand you should bet the aces on the turn because it is most likely to be the best hand and then consider folding if shown a lot of aggression. Then you can be pretty confident you're beat. Checking the turn and having it bet and raised is not the same however, because we cannot be sure how strong their hands are anymore. Checking the turn makes the flop bet look like a continuation bet only and that you don't have a strong hand. Now they can be betting KQ, QQ, QJ, QT, AJ, AT, Axh, K9h, etc. - all hands that you beat - them thinking it is the best hand. This added complication is yet another reason to bet out - you get better, more reliable information about your opponents' hands.
| Quote: | | Even if I was ahead, why get involved further here? I can pick a better spot. I dont mind laying down potential winners, it is about making money, not who has the bigger ego. |
This statement just does not make any sense and shows an incorrect philosophy about playing cash games. Your statement could apply in a tournament where you cannot rebuy. But in a cash game, you should get your money in EVERYtime you think you have a +EV situation. As you said, the point is to make money, and I believe you passed up an opportunity to do so. The only reason I can see someone not doing this is if the money meant so much to him that they are scared of losing - in which case they shouldn't be playing that high anyway. In any case, I feel you just made a mistake. Everyone makes them, there is no shame in it.
| Quote: | Where and what do I play?
2/4-10/20 online
4/8-15/30 at Canterbury
6/12-20/40 at Mirage
8/16-15/30 at Bellagio
5/10-10/20 in Chicago
Highest stakes at any smaller poker room around |
I do not know you, your playing style, or your past success. I am sure you are a good player, but I think you made a mistake on this particular hand. All I was trying to do was point it out, explain my reasoning for it, and hopefully you and others will benefit from it in future situations. If you still don't agree with me, that is fine. We can agree to disagree.
In response to your question, I play 2/4 online and 6/12 ~ 10/20 at the casinos.
In response to tame_deuces
| Quote: | I don't know much about limit, but if opponents hold hands in the range I would assume an unknown to hold in a limit game considering preflop position and play, hero doesn't have much equity left in this pot.
I don't think calling 2 cold is justifiable as +EV here, not when you consider just how many more bets you may have to put into this hand.
It may be the hands I reckon as standard for an unknown are too conservative though. |
I think your hand ranges for the opponents are way too conservative if you think hero doesn't have much equity. My rough estimation would be 40~50% which is more than enough to continue the hand. No opponent has shown any strength UNTIL Dave showed weakness by checking the turn. After the turn check, it is very hard to tell what his opponents could be betting. I have stated that I might fold if I had checked and had 2 bets back to me. However, my point is, he should not have checked in the first place.
In response to suitedaces84
| Quote: | | So now you understand why collusion/the guy being an idiot was brought up, right? |
Maybe I am being naive, but when I see someone make a bad or unorthodox play at poker, I default to them not knowing any better. Collusion is one of the last things I would attribute a weirdly played hand to. Again, this is all my opinion, and if you disagree with it, that is fine.
Posted Thu Oct 20, 2005 2:21 am GMT by suitedaces84
Read the part in bold.
| Aves wrote: | | Quote: | | So now you understand why collusion/the guy being an idiot was brought up, right? |
Maybe I am being naive, but when I see someone make a bad or unorthodox play at poker, I default to them not knowing any better. Collusion is one of the last things I would attribute a weirdly played hand to. Again, this is all my opinion, and if you disagree with it, that is fine. |
Posted Thu Oct 20, 2005 2:41 am GMT by tame_deuces
| Aves wrote: |
In response to tame_deuces
| Quote: | I don't know much about limit, but if opponents hold hands in the range I would assume an unknown to hold in a limit game considering preflop position and play, hero doesn't have much equity left in this pot.
I don't think calling 2 cold is justifiable as +EV here, not when you consider just how many more bets you may have to put into this hand.
It may be the hands I reckon as standard for an unknown are too conservative though. |
I think your hand ranges for the opponents are way too conservative if you think hero doesn't have much equity. My rough estimation would be 40~50% which is more than enough to continue the hand. No opponent has shown any strength UNTIL Dave showed weakness by checking the turn. After the turn check, it is very hard to tell what his opponents could be betting. I have stated that I might fold if I had checked and had 2 bets back to me. However, my point is, he should not have checked in the first place. . |
If you guess you have 50% equity vs two opponents, why fold. If I'm not mistaken that should be a raise?
Posted Thu Oct 20, 2005 3:08 am GMT by Aves
In response to suitedaces84
Then I guess we are agreeing that collusion most likely was not the cause for the weird turn raise, but stupidity instead.
In response to tame_deuces
On the flop and as I am betting the turn, I would assume around 40 ~ 50% equity. If your opponents both just call the bet on the turn, then you can be pretty confident that the estimate was correct. However, if after you bet, you get raised and reraised, you now have more, reliable information about your opponents' hands and can narrow their hand ranges. You must use your hand reading skills, knowledge about your opponents, etc. to estimate your new equity based on the narrowed hand range. If you think your opponent is raising KQ on the turn so that he can get a free showdown, then you are far ahead and definitely should not fold. If you think your opponent's turn raise means a set of jacks, then you are far behind and should fold. You must take a weighted average of all the possibilities and quickly come up with a new estimate of your equity, and its relation to the pot odds your getting. This is not an exact science and starts to become second nature with experience and study.
If you bet, get raised and reraised, you are getting 6-1 on your call. So if your estimate of your new equity is above roughly 15%, you can go ahead and call. One benefit of calling is you are not commiting a big mistake by possibly folding the best hand in a pretty big pot. It is only a small mistake to call when you have slightly less than sufficient pot odds.
I am no expert on this matter, and if you really want some good information, I would recommend reading one of many great poker books.
Posted Thu Oct 20, 2005 3:52 am GMT by tame_deuces
Yes ofcourse. But as I said I wasn't debating the check or bet dilemma here, the only thing that I see is that hero checked and I had to base the information on what we saw in the hand.
You said you guessed you had an equity of 40-50% in the hand, and I can only assume you said so based on what you saw in the actual hand history, not based on possible outcomes of the hero betting in the hand. Because we simply don't have that information.
I'm not trolling or flaming. But you yourself has written many posts here debating what you think is wrongful thinking, and pointing out what you think is flawed thinking, and I'm doing the same thing now. You can't base the hand ranges on what you think your opponents would have done if you bet.
We don't KNOW what would have happened if hero bet, and if what you saw in this hand makes you think you have 40%-50% equity, then you are in effect saying you should raise
Posted Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:34 am GMT by Aves
In response to tame_deuces
You said
| Quote: | | Yes ofcourse. But as I said I wasn't debating the check or bet dilemma here,the only thing that I see is that hero checked and I had to base the information on what we saw in the hand. |
My responses so far have tried to explain why I think betting is better than checking. My recommendation to bet was based only on action up to Dave's turn decsion of whether to bet or check, i.e. based only on the preflop and flop action, not what happened afterwards.
You on the other hand, seem to be trying to analyze the hand after Dave checked, got bet, and raised. These are two completely different situations and I will try to explain the difference below.
You said
| Quote: | You said you guessed you had an equity of 40-50% in the hand, and I can only assume you said so based on what you saw in the actual hand history, not based on possible outcomes of the hero betting in the hand. Because we simply don't have that information.
|
This is an incorrect assumption. My guess of 40~50% equity was based only on preflop and flop action. The preflop and flop action is fixed, it cannot be disputed. So we DO have that information. Now, if you wish to analyze the hand including the turn action, I will split it up into 2 cases - 1 where he checks the turn, and 1 where he bets.
--Checks the turn--
Now, with no description of the villians, I will assume a normal opponent at 3/6 online. In my past experience 3/6 online has many good aggressive players. Also, since Dave did check the turn, we know the turn actions of his opponents.
My analysis: After Dave's check, his opponents think he does not have a very strong hand. The bet on the flop was probably a continuation bet. Opponent1 bets what he might think is the best hand. Opponent2 raises. One of my main points that I have brought up time and time again is that after this betting sequence, you cannot say for sure what your opponents have. Both of them might be beating you, 1 of them might be, none of them might be. It is just very difficult to say because we must factor in their tendencies to bluff, how aggressive they are, etc. After the actual turn action of Dave checks, Op1 bets, Op2 raises, I do not really know where I stand. I can't estimate my outs with any confidence. My best estimate of Dave's equity is a range like 5%~50%(Not the 40~50% that you assumed). This huge range also shows why it is difficult to play the hand. So in the play of the actual hand, I am not in effect saying I should raise, but actually, I would be considering a fold (as I have stated numerous times before). Now compare this to betting the turn below.
--Bets the turn--
As Dave is betting the turn, I am still thinking 40~50% equity since he has not received any new information since the flop action. Since Dave did not bet, we do not know what would have happened, so I will just give some example possible outcomes
Dave bets the turn, both call, J hits river. I think Dave should check the river and evaluate if a call is worth it if betting occurs.
Dave bets the turn, gets raised and reraised. He is getting 6-1 on the call, but it looks like he's drawing to few outs, maybe around 3~4. He needs at least 11-1, so he should probably fold
Dave bets the turn, gets a fold from one oppponent and raise from another. Dave is getting 9-1 on his call, but I don't think I'm drawing nearly as thin as in the last situation. I might still be ahead. I would estimate my outs to around 6, I would need roughly 7.5-1 on the call, so I might call.
In all these situations, I feel I can more confidently count about how many outs I have. This comes from having good, reliable information from betting the turn. (This was not the only reason I bet the turn however, I feel like I had the best hand anyway, so I should bet for that reason also.)
You said
| Quote: | I'm not trolling or flaming. But you yourself has written many posts here debating what you think is wrongful thinking, and pointing out what you think is flawed thinking, and I'm doing the same thing now. You can't base the hand ranges on what you think your opponents would have done if you bet.
|
As I said before, my responses thus far have dealt with only action up to Dave's turn action. My decision to bet was not affected by what actually happened on the turn nor by "what I think my opponents would have done if I bet".
You said
| Quote: | | We don't KNOW what would have happened if hero bet, and if what you saw in this hand makes you think you have 40%-50% equity, then you are in effect saying you should raise |
Again, this estimate of 40~50% equity was based on preflop and flop action. Perhaps I can explain it a little clearer. If Dave instead had been on the button, and the preflop action went EP+1 raises, MP calls, Dave reraises, blinds fold, opponents call. Flop comes same as before. Before any flop action occurs, based on my hand and the board, I am estimating 40~50% equity - I feel I probably have the best hand. In this case, no matter what the flop action to you is (check/bet, bet/fold, bet/call, bet/raise), I will most likely raise myself. This result of my raise or reraise gives me very valuable information on how to continue with my hand. (Note: in my hypothetical situation, I am on the button and thus have position. Therefore, i can play the hand more aggressively than if I were in the BB. Do not compare my action in the hypothetical hand to what I would do in the BB as they would most likely be different) . As you probably know, you should usually raise when you have more than your fair share of equity in the pot - in this case anything more than 33%, and in my hypothetical, I feel I do have more than 33% (no matter what the flop action to me), and therefore WOULD raise.
I hope this clears everything up.
Posted Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:57 am GMT by Dave B
As an experienced player, I would say that there isnt a doubt in my mind that I did the right thing. I put this up as an example of where you might lay down AA -the river action justified that I was completely correct.
A decent poker player knows how to set a trap, a good poker player knows how to sniff them out.
Maybe you dont know how much respect I usually get after some time on a table. I dont play a lot of hands (20% full table), when I raise, I have a hand. If I bet the flop, I have a hand. By not one, but two calling, then 2 betting the turn, at least one has me beat at this point.
Lets say someone has a set or 2 pair, which was my read, I bet the turn and with the other player hanging around, he just continues to slow play his monster. Now, what do I do on the river, I have to bet here again, right? So I do, and am raised, the other player fold, I have to call. Where am I at-I have now put $30 into a losing hand instead of $12. Do that one or two times and hour and see if you can still be a winning player in the long term.
Posted Thu Oct 20, 2005 11:44 am GMT by Aves
Dave said
| Quote: | As an experienced player, I would say that there isnt a doubt in my mind that I did the right thing. I put this up as an example of where you might lay down AA -the river action justified that I was completely correct.
|
By right thing, I am not sure if you mean initially checking the turn or folding to 2 bets on the turn. If you mean checking the turn, then it will look I'm beating a dead horse when I say I (and many other winning players including snoogins now) would strongly advocate betting the turn. If you were referring to folding to 2 bets on the turn, then I completely agree, folding is probably the best option, as I have stated numerous times in my past posts. All my posts had to do with your initial turn action.
I still don't see how you can state that the river action justified your check/fold. In my opinion that is just ludicrous.
1. We cannot even be sure how strong your opponents' hands were. You may have been beat, you may have been winning.
2. As I've stated in my past posts, a simple hand analysis shows that the turn bettor most likely did not have a made hand (2 pair/set/straight) as he did not 3-bet it. It would be stupid to slowplay a made hand on such a draw heavy board because if an opponent is drawing, you will usually gain no bets when he misses and lose too many bets when he makes it. He most likely had a pair and a draw type hand, and by the river action, I would suspect AJ or QJ.
What, if I may ask, do you put the turn bettor on?
| Quote: | A decent poker player knows how to set a trap, a good poker player knows how to sniff them out.
|
Why would anyone want to set a trap on such a draw heavy board? Even the nut straight could get outdrawn by a flush. The correct play is to play the hand fast, by either raising the flop or turn. A good poker player should also not be afraid of monster hands that probably aren't there. If on hands this, you check the turn regularly, I am sorry to say, but it is being weak/tight in my book.
| Quote: | Maybe you dont know how much respect I usually get after some time on a table. I dont play a lot of hands (20% full table), when I raise, I have a hand. If I bet the flop, I have a hand. By not one, but two calling, then 2 betting the turn, at least one has me beat at this point.
|
I play about 17% of hands at a full table and I don't consider myself tight. I would say that is an average percentage for players at the 3/6 online level. This is also evidenced by a 313,000 hand sample size on another website. The link being
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=smallholdem&Number=2129882&fpart=&PHPSESSID=/
Sorry if links to other sites are not supposed to be posted, but in such a long running debate, I feel it is necessary to post any support of any claims. If you scroll down to 3/6, you will see the average VPIP is about 17.63% Therefore, I would not give someone with 20% the respect you think you are getting. Furthermore, as I have stated again and again, it is very difficult to say if you are behind after checking the turn because you have invited others to bluff at you, your opponents might be betting hands worse than Aces, etc. It's very hard to tell.
| Quote: | | Lets say someone has a set or 2 pair, which was my read, I bet the turn and with the other player hanging around, he just continues to slow play his monster. Now, what do I do on the river, I have to bet here again, right? So I do, and am raised, the other player fold, I have to call. Where am I at-I have now put $30 into a losing hand instead of $12. Do that one or two times and hour and see if you can still be a winning player in the long term. |
As I have stated above, slowplaying a monster on such a draw heavy board is a very bad play, for reasons I have stated above.
If you bet and get 2 calls, I would feel confident you are against a weaker hand(s) and/or draw(s). After this turn sequence and the J river card, I will check almost everytime. You might induce a bluff from someone who missed their draw, you might get a bet by someone who caught a jack, etc. Here you just have to go with your read and the pot odds to see if it's worth a call.
In my opinion, you like to play more passively and weak than what is generally accepted as optimal, and if that is your style and it works, then stick with it. There is nothing wrong with that and I'm not suggesting you are playing incorrectly. I just feel that you are not playing optimally and not getting your full potential because you are folding winners too often and leaving bets on the table. Again, if any of this seems like a personal attack or anything of that sort, it is not meant to be that. It is just my assessment and opinion of your playing style if your action in this hand is indicative of what you usually do in these types of situations. I am sensing some increasing hostility and do not want to get into a pissing match, or anything of the sort. These are all just my 2 cents, take it for what its worth.
Posted Thu Oct 20, 2005 11:56 am GMT by Dave B
I dont want to get in a full fledge pissing match, but let me address a couple things:
1) snoogins?
2) if average is 17%, then every hand is heads up. is this true?
3) I bet when I feel that I am ahead, it serves me well
4) why does the river action make me believe I am right? Who check raises the turn when the 2nd jack hits if he doesnt have AA beat? Lets I was still ahead on the turn, that is lots of money to through at a hand where I might be drawing dead already or if I am ahead, there are about 20 cards that will beat me.
Posted Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:11 pm GMT by tame_deuces
| Aves wrote: |
This is an incorrect assumption. My guess of 40~50% equity was based only on preflop and flop action. The preflop and flop action is fixed, it cannot be disputed. So we DO have that information. Now, if you wish to analyze the hand including the turn action, I will split it up into 2 cases - 1 where he checks the turn, and 1 where he bets.. |
In your first response to mine you clearly said your guess was 40-50% equity. And how you can estimate 40-50% equity vs an unknown with that preflop and flop action is beyond me in the first place. And that's not even considering the turn. Please post your ranges and I'll take you seriously.
And no, I do not wish to discuss the case where he bets the turn, because he didn't. When you set up what hand ranges that bet this hand when hero checks, all the hands you have stated over and over and over and over again are mostly in the range. It doesn't matter. The hand range is bigger than that.
But I'll discuss this no further, it is obvious we agree to disagree.
Posted Thu Oct 20, 2005 2:05 pm GMT by Aves
In response to Dave B
1) I thought snoogins was a respected limit player on these boards. If not, then disregard the remark. I still have 8 other votes for betting the turn vs 0 to checking.
2) Every hand is not heads up. Again, 17% is just the average. Some pots go uncontested, some go heads up, some go multiway.
3) This may be correct, but you might be betting only when you are way ahead, and thus are folding too many winners and leaving bets on the table. In general, if I have a pretty good hand such as Aces on a board of Kc Jh Th 8d, I am betting UNTIL I am shown strength. I am not checking assuming someone has strength just because of a scary board. Note: 2 opponents calling on the flop is not strength.
4) This is a classic example of being results oriented. Let me provide an example. Let's say you initially limp into a pot with pocket 7s, the button raises, the BB calls, and you call. 3 to the flop. Board comes 7 J Q rainbow. A raising war ensues on the flop and on the turn after a blank hits. If on this particular hand someone shows you a set of jacks or queens, that does NOT mean it was correct to fold your set of 7s anywhere through the hand. Set over set rarely occurs, and folding it with any frequency is a losing play.
You said
| Quote: | | why does the river action make me believe I am right? Who check raises the turn when the 2nd jack hits if he doesnt have AA beat? |
Back to the hand. First off, I am guessing you mean check-raises the river when the 2nd jack hits. Yes, one of your opponents checkraised the other on the river when the 2nd jack hits. But, what does that have to with the correct play on the turn? No one knows what's going to hit on the river yet, so you CANNOT use that information to influence your decision on what was correct to do on the turn. Sure, when the river jack hits, he probably has AA beat, but you want to make him pay to outdraw you. You CANNOT say that since someone checkraised the river when the jack hit, it was better for me to have checked the turn because I would have lost anyways. In most cases, you are ahead in the hand on the turn and are allowing your opponents to draw out on you for free.
You said
| Quote: | | Lets I was still ahead on the turn, that is lots of money to through at a hand where I might be drawing dead already or if I am ahead, there are about 20 cards that will beat me. |
I am not sure what you mean by this statement. You only have to throw one big bet on the turn initially to get you the information you need. After that, you can more confidently know your equity and proceed accordingly. If you are referring to the actual hand as you played it where you checked the turn, I have stated numerous times that I may fold in that situation also. But my argument did not have to do with your fold to 2 bets, it had to do with checking or betting the turn.
If you think you are ahead, you cannot be afraid to put in a bet even if you think your opponents have a huge number of outs to overtake you. You want to make them pay to outdraw you. You do not want to check the turn and make sure the river is a blank before putting the bets in. This again is playing too weak/passively. To put it another way, what if you checked the turn and your opponents check behind you. A deuce of clubs comes on the river. Do you bet out or check?
A weak player will only bet out now, after it is "safe" to bet cause no one has shown any strength at all. It looks like your opponents were on draws since they checked the turn. You can't get any money off a missed draw. So you might gain 1 bet from someone holding a pair of Kings or something similar.
This is in constrast to an aggressive player who will bet out the turn to make his opponents either pay for their draw or reveal their strength by raising. The aggressive player get many more bets in when he is ahead and might even get an extra one from an induced bluff from a missed draw. He can also fold correctly when he is behind due to the show of strength by raising the preflop 3-bettor/flop bettor.
In response to tame_deuces
I can estimate 40~50% because of my past experience in similar situations. The 2 opponents only called on the flop. That does not show much strength to me. I can also use the preflop calculator located on the toolbar to the left to show you what the mathematical odds of flopping straight/2pair/set are
straight : ~0.33%
2 pair: ~3%
set: ~11%
Not that high obviously.
The chance of flopping pair/straight draw/flush draw/pair and draw
pair: ~29% (about twice as much as all previous hands combined)
straight draw and flush draw: ~10% each
pair and draw: not sure, maybe ~10%
The chances of having these are much higher. You may say that the texture of the board being Kc Th Jh increases the chances of 2pair/set/straight. However, you must also consider the fact it increases the chances for a straight draw/flush draw/pair and draw also.
I've also done a PokerStove anlaysis whose results can be viewed here:
https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/amores/www/
The complete hand range I assigned for player 2 (the original preflop raiser) are: AA-99, AKs-ATs, KQs-KTs, QJs-QTs, JTs, AKo-ATo, KQo-KJo, QJo.
The complete hand range for player 3 (preflop cold caller) are: QQ, 99, 77-66, AKs, AJs-A5s, KQs-K9s, QJs-QTs, JTs-J8s, T9s-T8s, 98s, 87s, AKo, AJo-ATo, KQo-KTo, QJo-QTo, JTo-J9o, T9o.
The equity of the aces comes up to around 43.5%.
You said
| Quote: | And no, I do not wish to discuss the case where he bets the turn, because he didn't. When you set up what hand ranges that bet this hand when hero checks, all the hands you have stated over and over and over and over again are mostly in the range. It doesn't matter. The hand range is bigger than that.
|
Yes, the hand range is bigger than what I've stated - I agree. I have stated hands that the opponents COULD now be betting. They could also be betting 2 pair/set/straight. My point however, is exactly that. We CANNOT say for where they are BECAUSE we checked the turn. This is just another reason why it is better to bet so that the hands are more defined. Again, in the actual hand, after the turn check, bet, and raise, I will put Dave's equity between 5~50%, because I am unsure of what they have. And again, this is just one of many reasons I advocated betting out in the first place.
Posted Thu Oct 20, 2005 2:23 pm GMT by Dave B
Quick rebuttle:
1) Snoogins didnt even endorse the turn bet, he said he could go either way AND he said he liked the fold
2) It is more like 40%, you numbers are wrong
3) blah blah blah, learn how to read players
4) Set of set does happen. If I have bottom set, I might cap the flop (only to make a str8 draw pay for it) 2-3 bet the turn, but by the river I know I am beat-unless the player is a tool, which happens. I am the guy slowing down w/ bottom set, you are the dope that keeps firing at my nut trip Qs and pays me off bigtime. I win $150, you win $90 when we having this happen under the reverse scenarios. Long term, I win.
AA is just a pair, if I had bottom set, I would not have folded, there is a HUGE difference.
Extra comment: There is a str8 and board pair out there, who in their right mind, would CHECK RAISE without a boat or straight? You are risking 3 bets here, you might bet out, but you arent going to check raise w/ 10th nuts.
Posted Thu Oct 20, 2005 2:58 pm GMT by suitedaces84
Minor point not relating to the hand: it sounds like you missed the point of that 2+2 thread (maybe you didn't). Those are not #s of the average 2/4 and 3/6 players. Those are the average #s of winning 2/4 and 3/6 players. There's a big difference. The average winning player will have a lower VPIP, higher PFA, etc than the average player at small stakes. So when you compare Dave's flops seen with the average small stakes player he is tighter. If the average 2/4 player was 17/9/2.4 I wouldn't be playing 2/4.
Posted Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:25 pm GMT by tame_deuces
Deleted
Bah, stay away from me evil limit discussions, I leave it to those who know anything about it.
(Very uncharacteristic of me, I might add)
Posted Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:29 pm GMT by supafrey
20-25% is normal, not tight. And then there's me.
Posted Thu Oct 20, 2005 8:29 pm GMT by Aves
In response to Dave,
you said
| Quote: | ) Snoogins didnt even endorse the turn bet, he said he could go either way AND he said he liked the fold
|
Snoogins did endorse the turn bet, to quote, he said
| Quote: | | I think I bet this turn most of the time, |
I have already stated numerous times that I agree with the turn fold after checking. I do NOT agree with checking the turn initially.
you said
| Quote: | | 2) It is more like 40%, you numbers are wrong |
I have done a very thorough search and have read MANY stats posts on the site. Around 15~20% IS the accepted optimal VPIP. Would you care to explain where you got 40% from?
you said
| Quote: | | 3) blah blah blah, learn how to read players |
I have presented my analysis of the hand with reasons behind all of my actions and conclusions. The only hand reading I have seen from you is supporting your check on the turn BECAUSE of the river check raise - a fundamentally flawwed argument.
you said
| Quote: | ) Set of set does happen. If I have bottom set, I might cap the flop (only to make a str8 draw pay for it) 2-3 bet the turn, but by the river I know I am beat-unless the player is a tool, which happens. I am the guy slowing down w/ bottom set, you are the dope that keeps firing at my nut trip Qs and pays me off bigtime. I win $150, you win $90 when we having this happen under the reverse scenarios. Long term, I win.
AA is just a pair, if I had bottom set, I would not have folded, there is a HUGE difference.
|
Although I only posed the hypothetical set over set hand to show why someone should not be results oriented, your reply shows further evidence of your weak tight philosphy. The chances of flopping a set are about 8 to 1. The chances of flopping a set under someone else's set are 166 to 1. (See http://www.math.sfu.ca/~alspach/mag86/ for details.) Therefore, for every 21 sets you flop, ONE of those hands will have someone flopping a set over yours. If you think the money I lose from me going a little further than I should on the ONE time I flop an underset (i.e., I lose maybe 2~3 more BB than you would have), outweights the times I collect 1 or 2 MORE bets from one or sometimes MULTIPLE opponents when I am ahead with my set, you are greatly mistaken. From your replies about your hand with the aces and flopping set under set, it seems like your goal is to lose the least amount of money possible, rather than make the most money possible. My argument is based on the mathematics of poker. I am not exaggerating one bit when I say I am making much more money on my sets than you are.
So in your example, you won $150 from me and I only won $90 from you. But you do not take into account, the extra $300 I make when I push my other winning sets further than you.
I know you would not fold bottom set in the hypothetical. Again, my point for the hypothetical was to show why you should not be results oriented, not if folding it is correct or not.
In response to suitedaces84, you said
| Quote: | Minor point not relating to the hand: it sounds like you missed the point of that 2+2 thread (maybe you didn't). Those are not #s of the average 2/4 and 3/6 players. Those are the average #s of winning 2/4 and 3/6 players. There's a big difference. The average winning player will have a lower VPIP, higher PFA, etc than the average player at small stakes. So when you compare Dave's flops seen with the average small stakes player he is tighter. If the average 2/4 player was 17/9/2.4 I wouldn't be playing 2/4.
|
You are correct, these are the numbers of winning players. Thats what I meant in my original post, sorry for the typo. My point was, Dave seemed to think that by him playing "only" 20% of hands, he is getting some type of extra respect. On the other hand, it is quite the opposite. A winning player would probably see him as a bit too loose and not give him as much respect as the other winning tight/aggressive players. This is just in general and does not necessarily apply to the actual hand, as it was learned that he was playing against idiotic opponents.
In response to supafrey, who said
| Quote: | | 20-25% is normal, not tight. And then there's me. |
I think it is a little above normal, but it is within limits. The 40% (for full ring games) that Dave is claiming is a little bit out of the ball park however.
I think this hand has been thoroughly exhausted and don't wish to discuss any much further. If I still have not convinced the reader by now, I don't think I ever will. If we all just move on and play and study the game our own ways, and perhaps you will realize my point on your own later on down the road.
Posted Fri Oct 21, 2005 4:13 am GMT by tame_deuces
| Quote: | Aves wrote:
The complete hand range I assigned for player 2 (the original preflop raiser) are: AA-99, AKs-ATs, KQs-KTs, QJs-QTs, JTs, AKo-ATo, KQo-KJo, QJo.
|
These are your ranges for an unknown who raises 1 pos from UTG?
Posted Fri Oct 21, 2005 5:50 am GMT by Aves
In response to tame_deuces, who said
| Quote: | | These are your ranges for an unknown who raises 1 pos from UTG? |
No, it's my range for an idiot who was in a pissing match with another player 1 pos from UTG. As it was later revealed, the 2 opponents in the hand were going after each other. Since Dave was new to the table, he probably would not have known that at the time though.
Note: I just threw up the Poker Stove calcs in a hurry and am not an expert with it. So if you feel you can improve upon my prediction, be my guest.
Posted Fri Oct 21, 2005 6:14 am GMT by tame_deuces
| Aves wrote: | In response to tame_deuces, who said
| Quote: | | These are your ranges for an unknown who raises 1 pos from UTG? |
No, it's my range for an idiot who was in a pissing match with another player 1 pos from UTG. As it was later revealed, the 2 opponents in the hand were going after each other. Since Dave was new to the table, he probably would not have known that at the time though.
Note: I just threw up the Poker Stove calcs in a hurry and am not an expert with it. So if you feel you can improve upon my prediction, be my guest. |
You certainly can't adjust for the fact that the players would play almost anything against eachother, that's results oriented and no different from saying 'I should have called because he showed me his bluff'.
So cut away the hands that stem from information gathered afterwards. That information is not available when the hand played out, and can't be used.
Iow. villain1 gets the hands a typical player raises with from EP and villain2 gets the hands a typical player plays against an EP-raise.
Then you adjust for which of those hands typically call the flop.
Then you adjust for which hands raise the turn if hero checks (probably a bigger number of hands than if hero bet, as you allready have pointed out), and which hands are likely to reraise the turn.
That's all the information you should use for calculating the hand equity.
I leave the rest up to you limit players, as I said, my hand ranges may be off as I don't play limit much.
Posted Fri Oct 21, 2005 6:54 am GMT by Dave B
Live or online, a full table of 10, there are rarely less than 3 seeing a flop and usually 4-6. How many tables does the small blind fold, if the blinds call and one other, you are at 30%. This is still fairly tight.
Go look at sights (Pacific) that show % of players seeing a flop, I would be shocked if you find any at 20%, most are 50-60%.
Regarding set over set, 161:1 is fine for a random hands. But when someone beats you over the head several times, it isnt hard to find out that they are the 1.
Posted Sat Oct 22, 2005 2:59 pm GMT by Dave B
Here is a "aggressive" player who didnt know when his AA was beat. Not that I was not "passive" when the K came. It isnt passive to slow down when you think you are beat.
***** Hand History for Game 2915103287 *****
$3/$6 Texas Hold'em - Saturday, October 22, 15:45:41 EDT 2005
Table Bad Beat Jackpot #1078165 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 3: PT333 ( $126 )
Seat 5: Trigboy ( $137.50 )
Seat 6: yobrian ( $133.50 )
Seat 7: bakkis ( $180.25 )
Seat 10: cby_player ( $159.50 )
Seat 1: h80j16h87194 ( $175 )
Seat 8: FOCKERWT ( $124.50 )
Seat 2: ace_vs_king ( $122 )
Seat 4: mo1312 ( $124.50 )
Seat 9: MOLCARLOS ( $116 )
yobrian posts small blind $1.
bakkis posts big blind $3.
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to cby_player  
FOCKERWT folds.
MOLCARLOS folds.
cby_player calls $3.
h80j16h87194 calls $3.
ace_vs_king calls $3.
PT333 raises $6.
Trigboy calls $6.
yobrian folds.
bakkis calls $3.
cby_player calls $3.
h80j16h87194 calls $3.
ace_vs_king calls $3.
** Dealing Flop **   
bakkis checks.
cby_player bets $3.
h80j16h87194 folds.
ace_vs_king calls $3.
PT333 raises $6.
Trigboy calls $6.
bakkis folds.
cby_player raises $6.
ace_vs_king calls $6.
PT333 raises $6.
>You have options at Table 67633 Table!.
Trigboy calls $6.
cby_player calls $3.
ace_vs_king calls $3.
** Dealing Turn ** 
cby_player bets $6.
ace_vs_king calls $6.
PT333 raises $12.
Trigboy folds.
cby_player raises $12.
ace_vs_king folds.
PT333 calls $6.
** Dealing River ** 
cby_player bets $6.
>You have options at Table 67633 Table!.
PT333 calls $6.
cby_player shows three of a kind, sixes.
PT333 shows  a pair of aces.
cby_player wins $135.50 from the main pot with three of a kind, sixes.
figured, nh
>You have options at Table 67633 Table!.
|
|
