Posted Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:26 am GMT by Jauron
***** Hand History for Game 2912777348 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $10 Buy-in + $1 Entry Fee Trny:16777640 Level:2 Blinds(15/30) - Saturday, October 22, 01:40:13 EDT 2005
Table Table 66987 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 6: Jauron ( $770 )
Seat 10: tinner72 ( $1495 )
Seat 5: pocheowned ( $1570 )
Seat 2: russal ( $790 )
Seat 7: ArtVanndalay ( $715 )
Seat 9: hantera ( $620 )
Seat 4: luppylu ( $685 )
Seat 3: DoctorJ14 ( $672 )
Seat 1: The_Godfathe ( $683 )
Trny:16777640 Level:2
Blinds(15/30)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Jauron  
hantera calls 30.
tinner72 calls 30.
The_Godfathe folds.
russal calls 30.
DoctorJ14 calls 30.
luppylu folds.
pocheowned folds.
Jauron calls 15.
ArtVanndalay checks.
** Dealing Flop **   
Jauron bets 60.
ArtVanndalay folds.
hantera raises 180.
tinner72 calls 180.
russal folds.
DoctorJ14 calls 180.
Ok so you flopped the nuts, lead out (granted it was a little weak, but acting first on a big flop always sucks, you check and give the free card for the flush, bet out too big and loose everyone). I decided to play it weak and charge them a little in hopes for a raise. I get it right away but I get a lot of callers...someone is on the flush draw probably.
Lots of money in the pot now, on you what do you do? Is the easy answer the correct one?
Table is pretty passive preflop and crazy as hell after the flop, I watched second pair call off all their money twice, but I've also watched a lot of reraising and even more laying down to any strength so the table doesn't seem to have any consistant image post flop.
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Posted Sat Oct 22, 2005 11:49 am GMT by 1988 TR
3 out of the 4 of you are already comitted to the hand, so raise around 150 more & see if you can keep them all around. Whoever is on the flush draw would probably call an all in anyways (They already have 1/3 of their stack in the pot) so try to keep a few of them in & then go all in on the turn.
Posted Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:00 pm GMT by Ninja
I'm raising to 350.
Posted Sat Oct 22, 2005 2:18 pm GMT by TheSalche
quite frankly i push here, the reason being you're ahead here but likely to get hurt by a turn card, and any other non-push raise pot commits you pretty much ... ideally what you're up against is two flush draws and a pair maybe two pair, realistically from what ive seen at party you're up against 1 flush draw, 1 gutshot draw and two pair ... if they fill the gutshot you split, if the flush draw comes with a gutshot you could be severly screwed ... if the board pairs somebody might have filled up
theres about 700 in the pot, you've only put 90 into it from your stack ... if you push here and it folds around you've almost doubled your stack, if you get one caller you're probably a 65% favorite to become chip leader
i don't want to keep this pot multiway ... but then again look at my avatar and you know how i play :D
Posted Sat Oct 22, 2005 2:50 pm GMT by suitedaces84
| TheSalche wrote: | | i don't want to keep this pot multiway ... |
Then you'd better reach under the table or up your sleeve or where ever you hide your extra chips 'cause what you got isn't pushing any draws out. You'll only be getting rid of marginal hands (one pair, gutshot, etc) that have virtually no chance at sucking out on you.
Posted Sat Oct 22, 2005 5:41 pm GMT by Skribbles
Push.
There is already a decent amount of chips in the pot with plenty of draws on the table. If you push, you will definitly get a caller.
Posted Sat Oct 22, 2005 5:53 pm GMT by 1988 TR
| suitedaces84 wrote: | | TheSalche wrote: | | i don't want to keep this pot multiway ... |
Then you'd better reach under the table or up your sleeve or where ever you hide your extra chips 'cause what you got isn't pushing any draws out. You'll only be getting rid of marginal hands (one pair, gutshot, etc) that have virtually no chance at sucking out on you. |
Yep, that is why you want to bet enough to keep them around & keep them in. You flopped the nuts and are low on chips - you want to get a decent stack here, not play scared.
You are not going to chase two pair, trips, or a flush draw. Pushing chases the top pair hands. No reason to push here.
Posted Sat Oct 22, 2005 8:09 pm GMT by Jauron
Just a bit more info real quick, you start with 800 chips it's still early. I've only put in my call here otherwise I am exactly even with my starting chips.
Thats all I'll add for now.
Posted Sat Oct 22, 2005 8:29 pm GMT by tame_deuces
Push it. You're money is pretty much going into this hand in a couple of ugly turn/river card situations like say a paired board anyway, and I want to see chips flying in when I'm the favourite to win. It's doubtful how many players you lose here anyway.
I don't see a reason in being tricky/greedy here, you got about an avg stack and you are doubling it with what is in this pot allready, no need in asking for more.
Posted Sun Oct 23, 2005 12:05 am GMT by 1988 TR
| Jauron wrote: | Just a bit more info real quick, you start with 800 chips it's still early. I've only put in my call here otherwise I am exactly even with my starting chips.
Thats all I'll add for now. |
OK, I was thinking 1500 to start.....
Still don't like pushing with the nuts. I would raise 200-250 more.
Posted Sun Oct 23, 2005 4:04 am GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
I don't know why you wouldn't want to push here. SOMEONE will call you, but you don't want 3 callers going to the next card. There is already enough money in the pot that if everybody folds, you still make decent money--however, with 3 people calling out there, at least one of whom has a draw, someone is liable to call an all-in. This is a great opportunity to double up, so don't miss it. If you call and a spade falls on the turn, if you get a lot of action you might have to give up the hand. You're a big favorite to win, so push it.
Posted Sun Oct 23, 2005 4:31 am GMT by suitedaces84
Your chances at winning the hand are not a function of the number of players in the hand, in this situation. Thining the field may be may be comforting but it's not going to help you win the hand.
Posted Sun Oct 23, 2005 9:52 am GMT by fiezk
| suitedaces84 wrote: | | Your chances at winning the hand are not a function of the number of players in the hand, in this situation. Thining the field may be may be comforting but it's not going to help you win the hand. |
Thinning the field might well help you. If, worst case scenario, a set and a flush draw calls you, you're about 33% to win -- which would mean that this flop didn't really help you. Up against only a set you're 64% with a pot that is less than 30% smaller.
There is more than a slight chance the flush draw, if there is any, will fold to an all-in depending on his/her position and willingness to gamble. With a raise and a re-raise push you're screaming to the other players that you have a straight, if I was first to act with only a flush draw I'd fold.
Posted Sun Oct 23, 2005 10:36 am GMT by suitedaces84
No one's folding a flush draw here, no one's folding a set, no one's folding two pair.
Your equity vs a set and a FD is 38%
Your equity vs a set, a FD, TPTK, a gutshot is 34%
Now why would you want to get rid of the gutshot and TPGK type hands?
Posted Sun Oct 23, 2005 10:57 am GMT by fiezk
This is a tournament. I think a lot of players would fold a flush draw depending on if there was a caller before them, if their draw was for the nuts, if it also included a nut straight draw and if it was for all their chips.
Say you're first to act after the proposed push and you hold 5s 6s, would you call for all your chips? Would you call with TPTK "knowing" you'd probably have to hit your gutshot for a win/split the pot, and if you think about it at least one of your outs is probably gone?
Posted Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:06 am GMT by 1988 TR
| fiezk wrote: | This is a tournament. I think a lot of players would fold a flush draw depending on if there was a caller before them, if their draw was for the nuts, if it also included a nut straight draw and if it was for all their chips.
Say you're first to act after the proposed push and you hold 5s 6s, would you call for all your chips? Would you call with TPTK "knowing" you'd probably have to hit your gutshot for a win/split the pot, and if you think about it at least one of your outs is probably gone? |
Not with their chip stacks & how much they have already invested. They are not going anywhere.
Posted Sun Oct 23, 2005 12:37 pm GMT by TheSalche
| 1988 TR wrote: | | fiezk wrote: | This is a tournament. I think a lot of players would fold a flush draw depending on if there was a caller before them, if their draw was for the nuts, if it also included a nut straight draw and if it was for all their chips.
Say you're first to act after the proposed push and you hold 5s 6s, would you call for all your chips? Would you call with TPTK "knowing" you'd probably have to hit your gutshot for a win/split the pot, and if you think about it at least one of your outs is probably gone? |
Not with their chip stacks & how much they have already invested. They are not going anywhere. |
i was gonna say this is party poker, so there is no way i see a player folding a flush draw here ... if theyve already called off 1/4 - 1/3 of their stack they may even think they're pot committed with TPTK
so for those who are suggesting to merely reraise, obviously you call an all-in if you are re-reraised, but what do you do if you get all callers, and then the turn puts the 3rd flush card on the board?
Posted Sun Oct 23, 2005 4:07 pm GMT by 1988 TR
| TheSalche wrote: | | 1988 TR wrote: | | fiezk wrote: | This is a tournament. I think a lot of players would fold a flush draw depending on if there was a caller before them, if their draw was for the nuts, if it also included a nut straight draw and if it was for all their chips.
Say you're first to act after the proposed push and you hold 5s 6s, would you call for all your chips? Would you call with TPTK "knowing" you'd probably have to hit your gutshot for a win/split the pot, and if you think about it at least one of your outs is probably gone? |
Not with their chip stacks & how much they have already invested. They are not going anywhere. |
i was gonna say this is party poker, so there is no way i see a player folding a flush draw here ... if theyve already called off 1/4 - 1/3 of their stack they may even think they're pot committed with TPTK
so for those who are suggesting to merely reraise, obviously you call an all-in if you are re-reraised, but what do you do if you get all callers, and then the turn puts the 3rd flush card on the board? |
I curse and call. I have over half my chips invested. I'm not folding.
Posted Sun Oct 23, 2005 5:39 pm GMT by zeroswarm
push it all in. :D
Posted Sun Oct 23, 2005 5:52 pm GMT by suitedaces84
| TheSalche wrote: | | so for those who are suggesting to merely reraise, obviously you call an all-in if you are re-reraised, but what do you do if you get all callers, and then the turn puts the 3rd flush card on the board? |
Check and see what happens. I would consider getting away from it (I would call, but might not overcall, depending on who it was and how much they had, etc...). But you must admit having a chance to get away from it is better than having all your money in and being very sure you're beat.
If you truely want to defend your hand call the flop raise then push a blank turn.
Posted Sun Oct 23, 2005 8:02 pm GMT by traz
Push, to get that big stack out of the way if he's drawing. Get your money in now, when you have the best of it. If one of those shortstacks calls with a draw, then he's a loser in the long run, no matter how pot-committed he feels. If he hits, that sucks, pack up and go home and be happy with a good play.
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