Posted Thu Oct 27, 2005 7:46 pm GMT by AHBrownell
I just finished Matthew Hilger's Internet Texas Hold'em and King Yao's Weighing the Odds in Hold'em Poker. In addition, I have spent a reasonable amount of time online reading various articles on poker strategy.
I have read time and time again - Tight aggressive, is the best way to make money at poker. I have therefore attempted to use this strategy. I play around 20% of my hands. More from late than from early. I play small pocket pairs and suited connectors (87 and above) if I can do so cheaply. I play AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, AKs, AK, AQs aggressively and in the correct position I add additional hands like AJs and AQ. I use lots of different tactics to maximize profits such as check-raising and small bet baiting very strong hands, defending weak top pair flops. Generally, I think that according to the books I am doing what is asked. My question is - why am I not winning very consistently in ring games?
I was a loser in limit for about $800 and kept asking myself what I was doing wrong - kept reading more books - but just kept losing. I decided to move over to NL, where I have stopped losing, but am hardly making "huge" money. I'll typically lose a little bit consistently all session and then hit 1 or 2 big hands that make up the losses and then some (making me a winning player for the day).
I have noticed that ring games are very difficult to make money on in the long run (for me) and have been spending most of my time playing small (6-20 players) sit-and-go NL tourneys, which I have used to double my starting bankroll (in the past week or so). I have had nice upwards swings on ring games ($250 one day playing $1-2 table(s) for example), but for the most part I don't earn too much.
Now I realize that a good player is supposed to win say 1.5-2 BB per hour so I may be about on target for that. Playing small tourneys or .10-.20 NL makes me $5-10 per session (at least 3-6 hours).
After that rant, what my question basically is - are the books right? Is this style of play the best way to win in the long run? Thanks.
-Andrew
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Posted Thu Oct 27, 2005 7:59 pm GMT by Moon_Child
i'm pretty sure everyone who started to play online poker was tought that tight-aggressive was the best way to play. i was a loser for about a year, i constantly lost money play online premium hands. i would just get outdrawn and beat everytime no matter how'd i bet. it even made me realize that online could be rigged because of the bad beats.
so anyways, its more on the luck side of things and inexperience factor... suddenly i just started to win so who knows. i play more hands and i play on a variety of sites.
you just have to find ur game and ur site and everything will fall into place.
not much help, but hope to give u a better understanding.
Posted Thu Oct 27, 2005 8:34 pm GMT by tame_deuces
Never play totally according to the book. You may be a little easy to read then. And NL is different from limit too, basically people get away with a wider variety of playing styles, especially in shorthanded games. Also note that books geared very much towards limit may not be very handy for no limit play.
Though most low stakes online players don't generally notice how you play, so that advice shouldn't be followed too hard I guess.
Here is a few concepts that are crucial to surviving at low stakes.
1.) Position is gold, avoid bluffing at low stakes unless you have position on the other players. Avoid bluffing truly poor players who call alot.
2.) Pot control, one of the most crucial points of low stakes NL poker. Keep the pot low when you hold marginal hands, and future streets will be easier to play. There should be some articles on this forum about it, or hopefully your books should mention them. Search on google if not.
3.) Don't slowplay, if you flop a set, a flush, a straight. top pair, Bet them.
4.) Even when you are winning, you might be losing. This simply means you might not be maximizing your profit when you hold winning hands.
5.) Even when you are losing, you might be winning. You may make the right winning plays, but the odds won't always fall your way even if you hold the better part of those 70:30 odds.
Posted Thu Oct 27, 2005 9:34 pm GMT by supafrey
Your conclusions on FL are wrong outright, but your NL game can still be saved. Remember that the "online" game is a very specific type of game, and playing purely textbook poker will not necessarily beat it.
Posted Thu Oct 27, 2005 11:54 pm GMT by markusgc
| AHBrownell wrote: | I have read time and time again - Tight aggressive, is the best way to make money at poker. I have therefore attempted to implore this strategy. I play around 20% of my hands. More from late than from early. I play small pocket pairs and suited connectors (87 and above) if I can do so cheaply. I play AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, AKs, AK, AQs aggressively and in the correct position I add additional hands like AJs and AQ. I implore lots of different tactics to maximize profits such as check-raising and small bet baiting very strong hands, defending weak top pair flops. Generally, I think that according to the books I am doing what is asked. My question is - why am I not winning very consistently in ring games?
...
-Andrew |
| Quote: | im·plore
verb
1. To appeal to in supplication; beseech: implored the tribunal to have mercy.
2. To beg for urgently; entreat.
3. To make an earnest appeal.
|
Maybe your misuse of the word may be preventing you from implementing your new style to its fullest success.
Posted Fri Oct 28, 2005 12:09 am GMT by bluef0x
| markusgc wrote: | | AHBrownell wrote: | I have read time and time again - Tight aggressive, is the best way to make money at poker. I have therefore attempted to implore this strategy. I play around 20% of my hands. More from late than from early. I play small pocket pairs and suited connectors (87 and above) if I can do so cheaply. I play AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, AKs, AK, AQs aggressively and in the correct position I add additional hands like AJs and AQ. I implore lots of different tactics to maximize profits such as check-raising and small bet baiting very strong hands, defending weak top pair flops. Generally, I think that according to the books I am doing what is asked. My question is - why am I not winning very consistently in ring games?
...
-Andrew |
| Quote: | im·plore
verb
1. To appeal to in supplication; beseech: implored the tribunal to have mercy.
2. To beg for urgently; entreat.
3. To make an earnest appeal.
|
Maybe your misuse of the word may be preventing you from implementing your new style to its fullest success. |
ahahaha POST OF THE YEAR on THP.
I love you, making an account just to own.
Posted Fri Oct 28, 2005 12:16 am GMT by supafrey
2+2 rears its ugly head.
Posted Fri Oct 28, 2005 12:24 am GMT by snoogins47
| Quote: | im·plore
verb
1. To appeal to in supplication; beseech: implored the tribunal to have mercy.
2. To beg for urgently; entreat.
3. To make an earnest appeal.
|
Maybe your misuse of the word may be preventing you from implementing your new style to its fullest success./quote
He may have meant "employ" too.
Anyway, to the OP...
| Quote: | | Generally, I think that according to the books I am doing what is asked. My question is - why am I not winning very consistently in ring games? |
I could rattle off probably 800 things. You're probably showing down too many hands. Or too few. You may be raising too many hands. Too few. What does it come down to? The game ain't as simple as you want it to be, and it won't ever be. A starting hand chart and a few axioms aren't going to take you anywhere near where you seem like you want to be.
| Quote: | | Finally I decided that it could be a problem with a surplus of loose players willing to call too often (making it impossible to give ppl poor odds; meaning that you are more or less gambling because you cannot make folding the correct play even if you want to. |
Two things about this one: This is patently false, and very plainly indicates you lack an understanding of many fundamental concepts of poker. And that's probably the nicest comment you'll receive about that statement, so be warned.
Hopefully, if you keep at it, you'll look back at that line one day and laugh.
I don't mean to try and rain on your parade, just trying to inject a sobering dose of realism. Don't get discouraged, but realize there's a lot more to the game than finding big cards preflop. A lot more.
Posted Fri Oct 28, 2005 12:26 am GMT by supafrey
You're wrong snoo. I said an EVEN MORE polite comment.
"Your conclusions on FL are wrong outright"
I didn't twist the blade or nuttin'!
Posted Fri Oct 28, 2005 12:32 am GMT by traz
Your best bet is to post some hands, and see what opinions you get. Maybe theres different routes you can take to improve your play. Books can only teach you so much...I would definitely say I've learned more from reading various poker forums and how they analyze hands, then I have from any combination of poker books.
From my experience, various styles can be big winners, as long as they do it smartly. Being loose doesn't mean spewing money into a pot when you're bound to lose, and being tight doesn't mean only calling when you have the nuts.
Posted Fri Oct 28, 2005 9:07 am GMT by UrAteUp
Hand posting to the forum is a very good way to get feedback and learn from mistakes. There are so many here who are good at analizing hands. Put them up and see what others have to say. Maybe they can find a hole in your game that you can't see.
Posted Fri Oct 28, 2005 10:20 am GMT by BeerWench13
I am a tight-aggressive player myself. Since I started playing online again recently, I have doubled my bankroll. I get my money in when I have the best of it and get out of the way when I know I'm beaten. If a player calls with a horrible draw and gets lucky, I just make notes on that player for future sessions. Those players may win in the short-term, but in the long run they will return your money with interest.
I think a lot of people think of tight-aggressive as a player who plays very few hands and bets them big preflop through the river. This concept is inaccurate. You can limp with mediocre hands and hit, but you have to know what's out there that could beat you. If you can learn to put a player on a hand and know when they've outdrawn you, you will save a great deal of money. Also, if you know you have them beaten even though your hand is not that good, bet it out and take that pot. The benefit of being perceived as a rock is that you'll be able to get away with more pot thievery.
I suggest getting a better feel for your opponents at the table. Know when they're betting hard what they may have and what kind of draw they are probably on if they're just calling you down.
| Quote: | | 3.) Don't slowplay, if you flop a set, a flush, a straight. top pair, Bet them. |
I have to disagree with this statement to some extent. It depends on the board and your opponents. If you flop quads, by all means, slow play it until the river and then overbet the pot (I did this last night) and people will think you're trying to steal and will pay you off. If there is no possiblity for a flush or straight out there when you flop your set, bet it small enough to get a caller but large enough to get value for your bet. Build a pot when you're holding the nuts and don't stay in on draws unless they're extremely cheap and/or you're getting odds, pot or implied, to call. Don't stay in for backdoor or gutshot draws unless they're free.
Be patient and you will win in the long run.
Posted Fri Oct 28, 2005 10:33 am GMT by supafrey
the guy on live at the bike claims that EVERY woman he's ever seen play is weak-tight. replies?
Posted Fri Oct 28, 2005 10:34 am GMT by BeerWench13
He hasn't seen me play.
That's like saying every man who dresses nicely is gay.
Posted Fri Oct 28, 2005 10:40 am GMT by supafrey
they are. they touched my bottom.
lol. what's even funnier is the way he usually likes to say this (I've heard it atleast 3 separate times on his show)
"Now, I don't like to generalize.... but generally all women are usually very tight and very weak"
lol.
Posted Fri Oct 28, 2005 10:44 am GMT by BeerWench13
I want to play him. Most guys think this, however, which is why I get paid every time I play in a casino. They think they can bet big on the river and I'll fold. I don't mind this perception. To be honest, I prefer to be underestimated. It makes for bigger pots and thus more chips for me to rake in.
The breasts don't interfere with my brain, just my opponent's. 
Posted Fri Oct 28, 2005 10:56 am GMT by supafrey
i'm sorry, but i started completely ignoring/forgetting your point once you said breasts..
*drool*
Posted Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:11 am GMT by UrAteUp
| BeerWench13 wrote: | I want to play him. Most guys think this, however, which is why I get paid every time I play in a casino. They think they can bet big on the river and I'll fold. I don't mind this perception. To be honest, I prefer to be underestimated. It makes for bigger pots and thus more chips for me to rake in.
The breasts don't interfere with my brain, just my opponent's. |
I have to laugh every time I have played poker with Women. Not at the women mind you but at the guys at the table. They do tend to think of the women as weak and play them that way. I notice this type of play both online and live. Women can capitalize on this greatly.
My last live sessin, the one I posted where I thought people over valued their hands, saw one little darling older lady setting at the table. She cleaned up big time. She must have milked $300 in 4 hands that I was there to witness.
At one time she was in a hand and it was $20 to her to see the flop. She called and on the flop came KKA. The guy starting this round of betting off moved all -in right away. It folded around to the lady and she looked at him for about 2 minutes. Then she simply asks "How much to call?". He said to her "Darling you better just fold now because I got you beat." She called his all in bet and then they flipped their hole cards. He flipped KAo ans she flipped up AA for the nut fullboat.
I notice online that women are treated the same way as well. Guys underestimate their playing ability and often pay for it.
Posted Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:19 am GMT by BeerWench13
Truly, what gives us such strength at the poker table, I believe, is the fact that men NEVER know what's going on in a woman's mind. Therefore, we are nearly impossible to read. They also think we never bluff (because we don't have balls I guess?  ) and that we're always going to play our hands weakly. This allows me to slowplay monsters a lot and also allows me to build pots and get callers when I have a big hand because they think I'm overvaluing my hand because I'm a woman and I don't know any better. I love being a girl! :D
| Quote: | | i'm sorry, but i started completely ignoring/forgetting your point once you said breasts.. |
Thus my point has been proven. It was especially great during spring break with hundreds of horny little college boys running around with Mommy & Daddy's money. That was my biggest weekend to date in a casino.
Posted Fri Oct 28, 2005 11:25 am GMT by supafrey
Hrms... I don't usually like discussing my "secret poker tactics" in public like this. Perhaps you could send me a breakdown of your "biggest assets" in the poker world through a PM. My inbox will accept photos or video, only, unfortunately though.
Lets "debate".
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