Some questions for the limit people |
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Posted Sat Oct 29, 2005 4:03 pm GMT by tame_deuces
Today I started multitabling (3 tables) micro-stakes limit, and I must say it was great fun. Very relaxing compared to low stakes no limit, and multitabling made waiting for hands easy and wasn't as nervewracking as multitabling no limit games.
The games were pretty soft, lots of callers, usually 2-4 hands per flop and people generally overvalued the 'wrong' hands, ax,kx etc. And much to my amusement it seemed like people in limit failed to use pot odds 'the wrong way'.
Played for about one hour, got my fair share of good hands, and lots of premiums too.
But I'm fairly green when it comes to limit, so I have a few hands I have questions about, don't have hand histories but hopefully you'll bear with me. Oh, and if you find something awful here, please be gentle. ,)
*edit* I removed the results from the hands, I figured that would make it easier to judge the play.
Hand one. JJ
I get JJ in middleposition, folds to me, I bet, button raises, fold to me, I call. Two hands to the flop.
Flop comes unders, figuring the button is pretty aggressive I checkraise, button calls, turn comes an ace, I check-call down.
I don't know if I liked the calling down I did here...I felt like a loose passive slob, JJ with an A on the board doesn't sound like it beats much that threebets preflop.
Hand two. AA
I get AA UTG, bet, CO raises, I cap, CO calls. Two hands to the flop, I think there were about 2 callers to my initial raise (who folded when caught in between)+ blinds and our bets in the pot.
Flop comes rag-rag-J. I bet, CO raises, I got a little weak here and figured he could have a set here, so I called with the intention of check-calling down. Turns comes A and betting is capped (ain't I the hard one to read!), river puts three clubs on the table and betting is once again capped.
Should I have capped the flop? Been more careful on the river?
Hand three. A 7
I get A7o in the sb, 2 limpers too me, I complete, BB checks.
Flop comes T27
I bet, folds to button who calls. Turn is a blank, I bet again, button calls.
I don't know if this play was to loose or what it was, plus I put myself into being raised if someone have hit something here...could be major -EV I guess. Please critique. 
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Posted Sat Oct 29, 2005 5:00 pm GMT by suitedaces84
Each street is typically taken more seriously than the last. On the flop a raise usually means "I have two cards and don't believe you have sh*t". By the river it's "I've got a monster look out". This is in general of course. So adjust accordingly. When your flop bet gets raised with AA it means he's got KK/QQ/AJ and thinks it's good now or has nothing and thinks you have AK/AQ and every once in a great while they have a monster. On the river his raise is usually a monster, sometimes a big bluff and occasioally a marginal hand that makes no sense to raise with.
Posted Sat Oct 29, 2005 8:56 pm GMT by supafrey
The jj i woulda capped pre and raised out on flop (no the c-raise). Gets more information there, i think.
Posted Sun Oct 30, 2005 7:15 am GMT by tame_deuces
K...I'm getting better at folding on the turn/river. Suitedaces was correct as usual, people generally mean business when they bet the turn/river.
As for the JJ situation, the threebettor was pretty tight, atleast I didn't see him play many hands. So I figured him on AQ,AK,QQ,KK,AA. So I called since he would have position on me on the flop. Is that a bad idea? Is jj a capping hand?
Betting the flop point is duly noted.
Multitabled some 0.5/1 today, I seem to do okay, but it is probably just variance still. These three situations came up.
Limped with AJo from MP, flopped a J, bet, got called, turn is an A but puts three of a suit on the board. I called down (man I'm a calling station) and lost to the flush ofcourse...otherwise the board was non-scary. I have a hard time letting top two go, donk play?
And two times exactly this happened. I limp with KQo from late MP, we take the flop four-handed, and I flop top pair, but with three of a suit on the board (otherwise rag-tags on the board) and K high flushdraw. One instance I had position and raised the flop, got called, got my flush and won, other time I was out of positon, check-called, got my flush and won. On the second instance I check-raised the turn. But K-high flush with a fourflush on the board is pretty creepy so I'm unsure if I did the correct play in check-raising, calling to a non-nut flush or how to play the whole hand in general. Any advice?
Posted Sun Oct 30, 2005 11:34 am GMT by suitedaces84
Stop limping AJ/KQ/ATs/KJs from LP. Raise them. This is especially important when you've got a bunch of loose limpers. You have much more equity than them on average. If the player is loose enough raise QJ/KT/mid-pockets behind them.
And with the K-high flush draw + TP the raise depends greatly on how many players you'd be forcing to cold call two. I'd raise for value if there were a bunch of callers between me and the bettor. But this is a bad hand to iso raise with because your oppoents' hands fall into one of three catagories: 1) has the nut draw and isn't folding, has tons of equity so you won't be getting that much value; 2) has a pair and/or weaker FD, is drawing to 0 to 4 outs and is subject to re-draws, this guy doesn't have enough equity to call one. By forcing out him you're doing him a favor; 3) has a monster, this one is not very likely. Iso raising the 3rd or 4th nut FD would be a good idea.
The top two pair hands w/a FD hitting is tough. I always call there. Raising is no good because you can't fold w/outs in a huge pot to single bet. But will usually raise and fold to a 3-bet in multiway pots with TPTK type hands that have no re-draws (just don't do this too often, others may pick up on it). It clears everything up for the amazing low price of 2 BB. Calling with players left to act can get ugly and the river is tough to play too.
Posted Sun Oct 30, 2005 1:06 pm GMT by tame_deuces
| suitedaces84 wrote: | | Stop limping AJ/KQ/ATs/KJs from LP. Raise them. This is especially important when you've got a bunch of loose limpers. You have much more equity than them on average. If the player is loose enough raise QJ/KT/mid-pockets behind them. |
Yes, duly noted. I browsed through pokertracker and quickly realized I was too tight in what hands I raised with from MP and later positions.
Thanks for the pointers otherwise also. I must say I'm really starting to enjoy playing limit.
Maybe low stakes NL can mean more BB per hour, but it can be a bit more exhausting to do so, and I don't feel so prone to tilting. For example I got 2 sets and one boat crushed today (nono, not complaining...those situations were major +EV) but it didn't really bother me that much, in limit you sort of see it coming I guess.
Posted Wed Nov 02, 2005 8:15 pm GMT by tame_deuces
Well, the limit adventure continues. I don't have a large sample yet, about 2000 played hands but pokertracker in its infinite wisdom has finally branded me as a tight/aggressive player and given me the little eagle icon...a small victory in itself for a former laggy NL 6 max player.
I stepped down to micro 0.25/0.50 for some bonuswhoring and I'm running well...mostly winning sessions, a couple of break-even and one tough losing session but I'm at 4.5BB-5BB/100 hands, so add bonuses to that and I'm definitively running as well as can be expected, if not even better.
I've upped my aggression with KQ,AJo and similar hands in MP/LP, never liked those hands much in NL, but they definitively have great value in limit.
I'll probably post some questionable hands in the theory discussion forums, please give feedback to those if you wish.
On a sad sidenote, KK,QQ and JJ are all in the red... I'm hoping for my sample to get bigger. 
Posted Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:38 pm GMT by bluef0x
I thought TAG in pokertracker was a money bag?
Last time I checked I was a Tazmanian Devil, Loose-loose-aggressive
Posted Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:12 pm GMT by supafrey
the eagle is semi-tight agg, i think, or something similar. tight semi aggress. something like that.
the money bag is tag.
Posted Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:14 pm GMT by suitedaces84
TPA (tight passive aggressive) is eagle, TAA (tight aggressive aggressive) is money bag.
Posted Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:18 pm GMT by supafrey
and <3 is what suited has, of mine.
Posted Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:26 pm GMT by tame_deuces
Ok...my birdie just says Tight-Aggressive...moneybag is Tight-Aggressive/Aggressive. Only difference between those two is a slighly higher aggression factor postflop for the last one.
Tight passive aggressive comes as a rock...tight aggressive/passive comes as a warning sign.
Maybe there is difference in version or something.
Posted Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:31 pm GMT by suitedaces84
Mine says the same. Once your PFR is > 7 your icon will change to moneybag.
Posted Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:50 pm GMT by tame_deuces
Well, a hand from my limit games...I chose to start with an easy one, AA. Please criticize.
Villain2 is borderline loose, almost TAG according to PT stats.
Villain2 is loose passive passive, almost never folds blind due to raises and can call down with the weirdest holdings.
I noticed when reviewing the hand I did not have the backdoor flush draw...is that reason enough for pumping this hand on the flop or is it okay to wait for the turn, or is sandbagging just nonsense on these limits?
- xxx sitting in seat 1 with $13.10
- villain2 sitting in seat 2 with $37.38 Sitting out
- HERO sitting in seat 3 with $29.36
- xxx sitting in seat 4 with $21.37 Sitting out
- xxx sitting in seat 5 with $10.84 Dealer
- -xxx- sitting in seat 6 with $49.38
- Villain1 sitting in seat 7 with $4.31
- Villain2 sitting in seat 8 with $5.00
- xxx sitting in seat 9 with $14.75
- xxx sitting in seat 10 with $5.85
xxx posted the small blind - $0.12
Villain1 posted the big blind - $0.25
xxx posted to play - $0.25
** Dealing card to HERO:A ,A
Villain2 called - $0.25
xxx checked
xxx folded
xxx folded
HERO raised - $0.50
xxx folded
xxx folded
Villain1 called - $0.50
Villain2 called - $0.50
xxx folded
** Dealing the flop: 9, 6 , A
Villain1 checked
Villain2 bet - $0.25
HERO called - $0.25
Villain1 called - $0.25
** Dealing the turn: 7
Villain1 checked
Villain2 bet - $0.50
HERO raised - $1.00
Villain1 folded
Villain2 raised - $1.50
HERO raised - $2.00
Villain2 called - $2.00
** Dealing the river: Q
Villain2 bet - $0.50
HERO raised - $1.00
...
Posted Fri Nov 04, 2005 2:37 pm GMT by suitedaces84
I don't know. It's very player dependant. Here's how I think of it: everytime they raise the probabilty that you're ahead decreases. The point at which that number becomes less than 50% is greatly depentant on the player, your history with them and your table image.
Posted Sat Nov 05, 2005 6:01 pm GMT by tame_deuces
I wasn't over concerned about villain2 in that hand, as I had never seen him raise on a draw ...I pegged him on an ace on the flop and lower set or 2 pair on the turn...I was more concerned about villain1...it wouldn't be beyond him to limp with 32 and chase to the river. Luckily he folded on the turn (he obviously didn't have 2 hearts, I can tell you that).
How tight are these 0.25/0.50 micro-limits usually? I play now and raise from EP and it isn't uncommon for it to fold around the entire table. I praise the days when ultra-aggresssive or loose calling stations sit down, because at other times it is a real grind. The site I play now offer a very good bonus for my bankroll so I'm wondering if I'm playing other poker wannabees like myself or if this kind of play is typical at these limits.
On a good note, profits and bonus together have now doubled my 'limit poker' bankroll.
On a sad note, 4 sets crushed in a row.
Posted Sat Nov 05, 2005 7:17 pm GMT by suitedaces84
| tame_deuces wrote: | | IHow tight are these 0.25/0.50 micro-limits usually? |
I don't know. My only experience is at party. The .5/1 game might actually be tighter than 2/4 BBJ. But it's much less aggressive. The best game on party is .5/1 6-max. Usually the action players (and by action players I mean terribly loose idiots) hide there. I'd give 6-max a whirl if you're looking for more action.
Also get pokerace, buddy list your maniacs and follow them around. A true maniac will loosen up any table significantly.
Posted Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:41 pm GMT by lwestatbus
| tame_deuces wrote: | | How tight are these 0.25/0.50 micro-limits usually? ... I praise the days when ultra-aggresssive or loose calling stations sit down, because at other times it is a real grind. |
I played a lot at ring limit at these stakes. It seems that each table has its own character. Some are very, very tight and you can spot the play of what seem to be some pretty good players. Others seemed to have one or two wackos who changed the character of the whole table, raising anything and everything often. Like you, I love these because tight play can really pay off with some big pots. I do not tend to see a lot of calling stations, though. At some tables you'll have a too-high percentage of people seeing the flop on average (PokerRoom shows you this statistic when browsing tables in the lobby) but few regular callers beyond the flop if there is any serious action.
Posted Wed Jan 04, 2006 10:12 am GMT by tame_deuces
Yay! I remember I forgot to post my results for my FL experience.
I played mainly 0.25/0.50 and 0.50/1 in the end, so pretty low stakes and pretty easy competition. I ran around 4BB/100 hands, so I ran good while it lasted and quadrupled my initial deposit with the help of some nifty bonuses.
Naturally I credit all this to my l33t poker skillz, variance is only a term used for downswings, right? :D
And thanks to all for the help and in answering my questions! It upped my aggression, which helped immensely.
I'm now officially on a break from online poker, I need to focus on my studies for a while and get some good grades. 
Posted Wed Jan 04, 2006 11:24 am GMT by supafrey
| tame_deuces wrote: | Yay! I remember I forgot to post my results for my FL experience.
I played mainly 0.25/0.50 and 0.50/1 in the end, so pretty low stakes and pretty easy competition. I ran around 4BB/100 hands, so I ran good while it lasted and quadrupled my initial deposit with the help of some nifty bonuses.
Naturally I credit all this to my l33t poker skillz, variance is only a term used for downswings, right? :D
And thanks to all for the help and in answering my questions! It upped my aggression, which helped immensely.
I'm now officially on a break from online poker, I need to focus on my studies for a while and get some good grades. |
Speak of the devil. I've been clean for 10 days and counting!
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