Serious problems with pseudo-random number generation |
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Posted Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:02 am GMT by Grim_Jim
Several competitors have experienced serious problems with pseudo-random number generation (PRNG). In some cases these problems have compromised the security of their systems (Check articles about ASF Software's PRNG flaw). Some competitors in the online gaming market attempt to provide RNG by starting with a 32-bit seed for a PRNG. Unfortunately, this method provides only a very small set of outcomes in comparison to the Randomness required for truly random shuffled decks of cards. Because of this, they tend to use shuffle algorithms that attempt to work around the quality limitations of the PRNG that they are using. Sites that shuffle cards utilizing a PRNG with a 32-bit seed, will only be able to produce 4,294,967,296 possible shuffles, or merely 5 x 10-57% of the possible ways to shuffle a deck. More importantly, however, the combination of the use of a PRNG and relatively small seeds (or even large seeds that are not sufficiently random) and faulty shuffling algorithms can allow a determined individual to predict the order of the remaining cards in a deck after seeing the first several cards that are dealt.
Post Edit Quote:
| tame_deuces wrote: | | I wouldn't thrust this article because it is effect an advertisement for an online pokerroom. |
Ok ... Edited and removed link. 
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Posted Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:27 am GMT by Geno
| Grim_Jim wrote: | | ...the combination of the use of a PRNG and relatively small seeds (or even large seeds that are not sufficiently random) and faulty shuffling algorithms can allow a determined individual to predict the order of the remaining cards in a deck after seeing the first several cards that are dealt... |
Find me a man that can do that and I will call him a liar. If this sort of thing bothers people, just don't play online. Personally, I am happy with my 4.2 million shuffle combinations 
Posted Sun Oct 30, 2005 8:39 am GMT by tame_deuces
Seeds have always been a problem. RST proved this when they cracked the ASF software back in '99 or so, allowing real time calculation of the turn and river card in some pokerrooms' online hold'em games.
But this isn't a standstill business, man one thinks of something and man two solves the riddle, and man one thinks of something new. Most pseudo's in use now are safe.
I wouldn't thrust this article because it is effect an advertisement for an online pokerroom.
Posted Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:16 pm GMT by Jernej Zorec
um what site is using 32bit rng anyway ???
most are on 128bit as far as i know
Posted Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:17 pm GMT by Jernej Zorec
and i'm starting to think Beerwench was right when she asked about u being a conspiracy theorist
Posted Sun Oct 30, 2005 2:11 pm GMT by JohnnyCache
| Geno wrote: | | Grim_Jim wrote: | | ...the combination of the use of a PRNG and relatively small seeds (or even large seeds that are not sufficiently random) and faulty shuffling algorithms can allow a determined individual to predict the order of the remaining cards in a deck after seeing the first several cards that are dealt... |
Find me a man that can do that and I will call him a liar. If this sort of thing bothers people, just don't play online. Personally, I am happy with my 4.2 million shuffle combinations |
How could you narrow them down on the basis of the fall of say, the first three cards? What percentage of 4.2 million could the numbers be reduced too?
Posted Sun Oct 30, 2005 3:15 pm GMT by supafrey
lol stop it johnny, you're being far too logical
Posted Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:40 am GMT by JohnnyCache
Logical, hell, I'm curious about what he's saying.
Posted Wed Nov 02, 2005 7:23 am GMT by Grim_Jim
| Quote: | | Logical, hell, I'm curious about what he's saying. |
Needed, someone who is fluent in Bull$hite
Posted Fri Nov 04, 2005 6:51 pm GMT by suitedaces84
| Grim_Jim wrote: | | Sites that shuffle cards utilizing a PRNG with a 32-bit seed, will only be able to produce 4,294,967,296 possible shuffles, or merely 5 x 10-57% of the possible ways to shuffle a deck. More importantly, however, the combination of the use of a PRNG and relatively small seeds (or even large seeds that are not sufficiently random) and faulty shuffling algorithms can allow a determined individual to predict the order of the remaining cards in a deck after seeing the first several cards that are dealt. |
Here's a really tricky math problem: what's 10% of 4,294,967,296?
A: 429,496,730
So a determined individual could narrow the possible boards down to 429,496,730. Wow, how useful.
And if there are poeple who can predict what cards will hit they're not writing acticles about it or selling their systems for $40 a piece. They're playing high stakes games and keeping their mouths shut.
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