Posted Sat Nov 05, 2005 3:44 pm GMT by AHBrownell
I had a hand today that was utterly awful. I felt like I made the right play and just got unlucky, but was curious about what others would have done.
This was on a 6 player, NL .25/.50 table online.
I was first to act with K  K  , I raise 4x BB ($2). Guy to my left calls, everyone folds to the SB who raises to $4. I reraise to $10. Guy to my left calls. SB goes all-in for more than $15 (my stack), I call, and the other player calls. Nothing above a Q hits the board so I figure things are looking good. End of the hand, SB shows K  K  and the other player shows A A . 
I couldn't get a read on the player calling, the SB player was aggressive, nearly maniac. I was a bit annoyed to lose a buy-in, but its part of the game.
Did I play this wrong? Can you ever think of a situation when you would lay down KK at a 6 player table???
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Posted Sat Nov 05, 2005 3:48 pm GMT by bluef0x
fold(ing) preflop. (is never correct)
There are definately times when you can after the flop..
Posted Sat Nov 05, 2005 4:06 pm GMT by Geno
Always very hard to fold KK pre-flop. I think I've done it once successfully but the other guy was a very strong but predictable player who had Aces up his sleeve. Some other sucker with QQ in the same hand was not so clever and lost his shirt 
Posted Sat Nov 05, 2005 5:23 pm GMT by suitedaces84
| Geno wrote: | | Some other sucker with QQ in the same hand was not so clever and lost his shirt |
I didn't think they had strip poker online.
Posted Sat Nov 05, 2005 6:27 pm GMT by bluef0x
Even the pros won't lay it down...
I remember reading Daneil Niggeraunue (sp?) that he's only folded KK preflop once, he had a STRONG gut-feeling that the opponent had Aces... turns out he had QQ and since then he's never laid it down preflop again.
There's only one hand that beats you... and the chances of them having it are are less than the Texans winning the superbowl.
Posted Sat Nov 05, 2005 6:45 pm GMT by tame_deuces
I've lost my share of stacks in NL ring games with KK versus AA, and I don't even have that large a hand sample to begin with.
It happens..and it isn't THAT rare...no worry...I think it is far more -EV to lay it down anyway. Just be properly bankrolled...stacks come and go in low stakes NL on a regular basis anyway.
As a comforting thought you will have AA when someone else has KK just as often, so if you never lay down either it doesn't matter in the long run.
Posted Sun Nov 06, 2005 4:12 am GMT by Jauron
6 handed it's nearly a never fold. You have to KNOW the guy has AA to want to lay it down. I've busted out a few times with KK short handed, but I've made far more money with it calling smaller pairs or having it hold up to an agrressive Ace.
Posted Mon Nov 07, 2005 5:06 pm GMT by 1988 TR
I can't ever lay it down pre flop.
Posted Mon Nov 07, 2005 5:14 pm GMT by Geno
Lost my shirt earlier with KK vs AA pre-flop. Action was:
(I am UTG+1)
UTG bets 4xBB, I raise to 12xBB total. All fold round to UTG who shoves. I refuse to lay down KK here! Before I call I let him know that he has Aces and I know it. He obliges
It sucks but it's rare so I take it every time like a man with a stiff upper lip and a couple swear words :D
Posted Tue Nov 08, 2005 11:06 am GMT by AHBrownell
So I had a decent hand with KK today. 4 callers before me, I'm on the button. I raise to 6x BB, SB folds, BB (a solid moderately tight player) calls, everyone else folds. KK in position - I'm happy. Flop comes rags. BB raises the pot. I push. He actually calls - now I'm worried. 2 more rags come on the turn/river. BB shows Q Q . I win a 60$ pot.
Posted Tue Nov 08, 2005 12:06 pm GMT by 1988 TR
A week ago, someone called the BB, next guy raised 4x the BB, and I went all in with KK - An unusual play for me - Usually I would just re-raise, but was down a bit & wanted to double up & was hoping someone would make a bad read & put me on an Ace or low to medium pocket pair. My bet was 180X the big blind. I got one caller who I had covered, but had 150X the BB. He turned over AA.
Flopped my King - The biggest pot I ever won.
So hey, even if the guy has AA, you will win once in a while. Not to mention all the times you have the guy smacked who has AK, QQ, JJ, etc.
Posted Tue Nov 08, 2005 12:46 pm GMT by lilitu
I was playing £1-£1 no limit at my local casino. Full table and I'm sat in MP. My little brother raises £5 UTG+1, and my heart sinks.
It's folded to me and I make it £5 with £20, he calls, uh ohh. Flops rags, he bets I call, turns an A, he checks I check, river pairs a rag, he checks I push, he calls.
I show up Aces full, he shows me his kings. We've never sat at the same table since.
Lilitu
Posted Fri Nov 18, 2005 9:08 pm GMT by Mumlern
While i red this thread, i got KK on my hand. (.5/1 fixed)
I raised and get 4 calls. Flop turns out KJJ. I check for to slowplay my boat and get a bet, 3 (including me) calls. Turn is a low card, got another bet. Still 3 in play and i call him. Then the river shows up to be a J, and im scared. The same guy bets, the seccond player calls, i raise, he reraise, i reraise to max, and he calls.
I won 20$ 
Posted Sat Nov 19, 2005 12:22 am GMT by ScanX
I've folded KK preflop 4 or 5 times maybe.
Anyone who says he would never fold it preflop is full of shit to be honest.
Let's say u are deep in the game, both players have 3 or 4x the buy-in and somehow the opponent reraises u all-in preflop when u have KK, do u call ? I'd say that's a very bad play if u do so, unless u have a very very VERY good read on the player.
Posted Sun Nov 20, 2005 10:53 pm GMT by howzit
| ScanX wrote: | I've folded KK preflop 4 or 5 times maybe.
Anyone who says he would never fold it preflop is full of shit to be honest.
Let's say u are deep in the game, both players have 3 or 4x the buy-in and somehow the opponent reraises u all-in preflop when u have KK, do u call ? I'd say that's a very bad play if u do so, unless u have a very very VERY good read on the player. |
how so? does the action go limp reraise all-in? or bet, raise, reraise all-in?or bet, raise all-in?
Scan, people in my game are capable of doing this kind of shit w/any two, broadway cards, AK, AQ, QQ, Ax and even suited connectors. My game is crazy fast and I don't imagine this to be profitable w/out a good read. You need a very, very, very good read to fold KK.
But I don't play in rock gardens.
Posted Sun Nov 20, 2005 10:56 pm GMT by Skribbles
| bluef0x wrote: | | Daneil Niggeraunue (sp?). |
Since when is bullshit like this allowed on the forum. Don't even f*ck try and say thats how you think its spelt.
Posted Sun Nov 20, 2005 11:07 pm GMT by howzit
| 1988 TR wrote: | | A week ago, someone called the BB, next guy raised 4x the BB, and I went all in with KK - An unusual play for me |
this is more like the way i play. . .if it's a massive overbet, it's based off my table image and past history w/opponents and not "to protect my hand"
and if I'm really running over the table and being a total maniac, I'll shove it in and say something obnoxious.. . . "dis is no limit baby. All you can eat baby."
and oh, i want a call every time.
Posted Mon Nov 21, 2005 10:20 am GMT by UrAteUp
| 1988 TR wrote: | A week ago, someone called the BB, next guy raised 4x the BB, and I went all in with KK - An unusual play for me - Usually I would just re-raise, but was down a bit & wanted to double up & was hoping someone would make a bad read & put me on an Ace or low to medium pocket pair. My bet was 180X the big blind. I got one caller who I had covered, but had 150X the BB. He turned over AA.
Flopped my King - The biggest pot I ever won.
So hey, even if the guy has AA, you will win once in a while. Not to mention all the times you have the guy smacked who has AK, QQ, JJ, etc. |
I hit one similar to this over the weekend. I had AA on the BB. SB bet something like half his stack. I called. Flop came AKK and he bet his reamaining stack. I called with what I could cover. He flips over AK for a K or A full house. I flip over my AA for a A over K full house to take the pot. Second best hand I ever won with. It's just a shame that total won in this pot was $6 and some change.
Posted Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:20 am GMT by ScanX
| howzit wrote: | | ScanX wrote: | I've folded KK preflop 4 or 5 times maybe.
Anyone who says he would never fold it preflop is full of shit to be honest.
Let's say u are deep in the game, both players have 3 or 4x the buy-in and somehow the opponent reraises u all-in preflop when u have KK, do u call ? I'd say that's a very bad play if u do so, unless u have a very very VERY good read on the player. |
how so? does the action go limp reraise all-in? or bet, raise, reraise all-in?or bet, raise all-in?
Scan, people in my game are capable of doing this kind of shit w/any two, broadway cards, AK, AQ, QQ, Ax and even suited connectors. My game is crazy fast and I don't imagine this to be profitable w/out a good read. You need a very, very, very good read to fold KK.
But I don't play in rock gardens. |
I wasnt thinkin about an exact scenario on how the opponent moves all-in preflop.
NL400 6max aint a rock garden but it's not the loosest game around either.
So if an opponent moves in on me for $1600 and I have $1600 I'd be very very very worried I'm against AA. I really would fold most of the time unless I've seen the guy have huge swings and do crazy all-in preflop moves.
My advice is certainly biased by the game I deal with everyday on PP.
I believe that the level of tightness is like a Gauss's graph with NL400 being on the peak...so this explains that :)
Posted Mon Nov 21, 2005 2:41 pm GMT by tame_deuces
| Skribbles wrote: | | bluef0x wrote: | | Daneil Niggeraunue (sp?). |
Since when is bullshit like this allowed on the forum. Don't even f*ck try and say thats how you think its spelt. |
I have to say I agree here. Stuff like that is not necessary.
Posted Thu Dec 01, 2005 12:49 am GMT by screwthepooch
My 2 cents:
I have never ever ever folded KK pre-flop, and I pretty much don't ever imagine myself doing so. I don't care if I'm 1 spot away from the money or any other scenario. Just can't do it. However at the same time, if an A flops, I have absolutely no problem folding my KK. One of my friends told me recently that the statistics are 1 out of 24 times you hold KK will someone else hold AA. I like those odds. I'd bet my house (or my apartment) on KK (pre-flop).
ScrewThePooch
Posted Thu Dec 01, 2005 2:47 am GMT by doodoobutter
it's hard to go wrong with KK preflop. The only way I could see AA vs. KK preflop is if the guy with AA reraises after you reraise. To me, it's ussually a sign of pocket Aces, but even then I probably wouldn't fold  . Unless I was put allin preflop and was sure the other guy had AA, then I would more likely lay it down, but any other situation is good.
Posted Thu Dec 01, 2005 4:07 am GMT by supafrey
Just don't fold kk ever preflop. It's not hard.
Posted Thu Dec 01, 2005 4:08 pm GMT by 1988 TR
| screwthepooch wrote: | My 2 cents:
I have never ever ever folded KK pre-flop, and I pretty much don't ever imagine myself doing so. I don't care if I'm 1 spot away from the money or any other scenario. Just can't do it. However at the same time, if an A flops, I have absolutely no problem folding my KK. One of my friends told me recently that the statistics are 1 out of 24 times you hold KK will someone else hold AA. I like those odds. I'd bet my house (or my apartment) on KK (pre-flop).
ScrewThePooch |
I wouldn't say never. I can invision a scenario in a tourney with 5 people left where the top 4 get the same prize (usually a buy in to a larger tourney). If one of the 5 is grossly short stacked, it would be an absolute blunder to get all in with another player while holding KK. I wouldn't even get all in holding AA. If you are 99% to place in the top 4, I don't have the odds even with AA to play it.
Posted Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:31 pm GMT by AHBrownell
Phil Gordon has a section in his book called "beware the fourth raise" or something similar. The idea is if you bet with KK, and are reraised, and you reraise, and you are reraised a 2nd time - you can only be up against AA. I have been using this as my strat with KK now. If I limp with my KK, as I often do, and I get raised, I reraise the minimum, if I am reraised from there I always fold now. Its annoying, but not worth a full buyin...
Posted Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:10 pm GMT by tame_deuces
| ScanX wrote: | | howzit wrote: | | ScanX wrote: | I've folded KK preflop 4 or 5 times maybe.
Anyone who says he would never fold it preflop is full of shit to be honest.
Let's say u are deep in the game, both players have 3 or 4x the buy-in and somehow the opponent reraises u all-in preflop when u have KK, do u call ? I'd say that's a very bad play if u do so, unless u have a very very VERY good read on the player. |
how so? does the action go limp reraise all-in? or bet, raise, reraise all-in?or bet, raise all-in?
Scan, people in my game are capable of doing this kind of shit w/any two, broadway cards, AK, AQ, QQ, Ax and even suited connectors. My game is crazy fast and I don't imagine this to be profitable w/out a good read. You need a very, very, very good read to fold KK.
But I don't play in rock gardens. |
I wasnt thinkin about an exact scenario on how the opponent moves all-in preflop.
NL400 6max aint a rock garden but it's not the loosest game around either.
So if an opponent moves in on me for $1600 and I have $1600 I'd be very very very worried I'm against AA. I really would fold most of the time unless I've seen the guy have huge swings and do crazy all-in preflop moves.
My advice is certainly biased by the game I deal with everyday on PP.
I believe that the level of tightness is like a Gauss's graph with NL400 being on the peak...so this explains that |
I think in really deepstacked poker where both players hold biiig stacks, folding KK is correct under certain circumstances.
But I assumed the OP was talking about either him or his opponent hovering around the buy-in, a more typical scenaro, in which case I stick with the notion that it is never correct to fold KK.
Posted Sun Dec 11, 2005 2:01 pm GMT by Ciso_B
I have folded KK once pre flop in a multi table. And would agree with you lot that you shouldn't be folding it pre flop very often, but there are times when you should too.
Also, for once i agree with Scanx, the cash game scenario. You'd be surprised how often I have seen it someone just move all in with AA after a raise, its not that bad a move really too. I mean how can you put him on AA what moron would go all in for so much? If someone went all in against me in a cash game (5/10 blinds) for such a big bet,I would give it alot of thought , course online doesnt let u think for too long  .
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