Posted Wed Nov 09, 2005 2:11 pm GMT by TheSalche
Here's something I came across last night while playing an SnG ...
I have JJ on the button, blinds are still low to stacks (20/40, with starting chip count of 1500), there were I believe 3 limpers ahead of me, then LP pops it up to 180, I min-raise to 300ish, table folds to LP, who reraises me and I fold.
Now, I'm trying to figure out what the best course of action here would've been ... Obviously he either had AK or a bigger pair (I could tell that from the original bet, reraise officially gave it away), here's what my options look like.
(1) Call, mostly trying to hit a set, or get away cheaply if an A, K, Q hits ... obviously if its all undercards, I still have position on him and can probably throw my hand away if he makes a large bet.
(2) Raise of some sort, like I did ... this costs a few more chips, but it will surely eliminate all the limpers ... or if they have AA or KK, they'll reraise and I'll be able to fold. Of course a very likely situation here is he re-raises me and i have to fold, but I lose about 150 more chips than just calling
(3) Fold ... eh? I'm tight, but not that tight ... this feels like a total weak-tight play.
Thoughts?
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Posted Wed Nov 09, 2005 3:03 pm GMT by UrAteUp
Salche,
Like you said, you put this guy on AK or a larger PP. I might have called his first bet but wouldn't have reraised. I would have wanted to see the flop at least and pray my set was there. If not then I am going to be watching the flop with great interest. No matter what hits I would check to him unless he is first to act. If so lets look at the senerios.
1) If nothing hits the board that will improve his hand then chances are he will check. If he does then I am going to bet at least a pot size bet.
2) If a J hits the board and he comes out firing big with a bet then I would almost have to put him on AJ. It really wouldn't matter then as to what he did have because you would have him beat most likely.
3) K or A hits the board and he fires off a big bet. That's when I walk away from the hand and lay it down.
That's just my style of play though. Most people say I play way too conservative though.
Posted Wed Nov 09, 2005 3:03 pm GMT by BeerWench13
I'd have just called the raise preflop and seen the flop. Why risk more of your chips or, what actually happened, being reraised and forced to fold a premium hand without seeing a flop? And, you're in better position than he is. I would've cold-called the raise preflop and gone from there. JMHO, of course.
Posted Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:25 pm GMT by bluef0x
Reraising and folding = weak.
Instead call and see a flop, don't try to "narrow the field" You need a set or all unders to play past the flop anyways and then you can play your hand hard.
"obviously if its all undercards, I still have position on him and can probably throw my hand away if he makes a large bet. "
Thats just DUMB. He can have 99-TT if the board came 8 high. He can have AK/AQ/AT that whiffed. Don't give players so much credit
Posted Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:56 pm GMT by TheSalche
| bluef0x wrote: |
Thats just DUMB. He can have 99-TT if the board came 8 high. He can have AK/AQ/AT that whiffed. Don't give players so much credit |
what if he has AA, KK or QQ and the flop comes all unders?
lets take a look at this ... the pot is about 400 ish if i just call and everybody else folds, 550ish if one other person calls (i have 1200 behind)
he bets the pot, what do i do here? i can't call, cause i've committed nearly 2/5 my stack, and still have to fade two bets
if i push and lose to a higher pair then im out of the tourney
by reraising the thoughts i get the information i need on his hand, and make a choice there for less chips
i'm pretty dumb ...
Posted Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:05 pm GMT by bluef0x
You go broke if he has QQ-AA. You're playing way too scared and giving players way too much credit. You lost more chips by re-raising/folding than seeing a flop where you might hit a set all unders. What was the buy-in? Unless it was a $109.... No way I put him on QQ-AA exclusively. I've seen people reraise with QJo and go all-in when a J flops.
Posted Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:02 pm GMT by snoogins47
The average player, who puts in a 3rd bet preflop in a no-limit environment, tends to have JJ pretty well crushed.
| Quote: | | Instead call and see a flop, don't try to "narrow the field" You need a set or all unders to play past the flop anyways and then you can play your hand hard. |
Blue, one of these days you need to realize that this arbitrary set of rules you've drawn up to play the game doesn't necessarily always apply, and certainly is nowhere near optimum poker strategy. And how is his reaction to a large bet on the flop so stupid? Let's say we put our opponent on a range of AA-QQ, and AK, but we call because we're awesome. Now the flop comes low cards, and he overbets the pot. If we did a straight-up hand distribution calculation, he's got a big pair a little more than half the time. But given the fact that he re-raised a re-raiser preflop, and makes a large bet on the flop, I assure you he's a significant favorite to have us absolutely HULK SMASHED.
Anyway, I think re-raising preflop, and smooth calling, are both definitely valid plays here. Too many people are way too hung up on the "OMFG PROTECT YOUR HAND" thing, and really there's nothing wrong with seeing a flop with JJ here. I don't like the min-re-raise though. When he's got AK/AQ/KQ, he's getting what, 4 to 1 to call and take the flop? It may be sketchy knowing your 'range' of hands, but given what actual cards you hold, the min-raise really seems to give him favorable odds to try to outflop you, while also letting him get away very cheap when he misses, since a lot of people have figured that a min-re-raise comes with a sign that says "I have a big pair, fools." (Note that if you flat-called preflop and he has big cards that whiffed, you're usually making a lot more than the 160-ish chips you're making off when you min-raise, he whiffs, and he folds on the flop, because he's going to bet more than that on the flop most of the time)
It also opens up the flood gates and can cause you to make a pretty sizeable mistake folding against a hand like AK/AQ that pushes back, or a massive mistake folding against a hand like 77-TT that pushes back.
Posted Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:08 pm GMT by bluef0x
It depends on the stakes as I said.
A reraaise does not tend to have JJ pretty well crushed. I've seen this over and over and usually it means any pair and any two broadways. I've logged over 500 SnG's and NO WAY is close to locking him into AA-QQ, AK. If there was a way to look back at my past SnG's I would love to see the stats and I'd think you would be surprised. Again, this is assuming its an $11-$33..
Posted Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:15 pm GMT by tame_deuces
I'll chime in and say that I agree totally with Snoogins.
And there will be times when you have to be able to lay down an OP in no limit. Actually...people prey on OPs in no limit ..they'll try and stack you with sets, straights and higher OPs and lots of funky, weird hands...and if you're never able to lay down an overpair your giving them all the implied odds they will ever need to be able to do that.
Maybe in an SNG it isn't the most important skill, I don't know...but in MTTs and cash games it is vital.
Posted Wed Nov 09, 2005 11:20 pm GMT by bluef0x
You can't lay it down in an SnG... you only get 800 chips in Party format and trust me, you more times they have 1 pair on the board, two overcards, and absolute trash than QQ-AA to make it a very successful play.
This isn't a cash game...
Posted Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:37 am GMT by TheSalche
I don't think my min re-raise was the best play, which is why I asked for advice (obviously). In a party $11 I proably would've pushed there and fired up another one if I lost. This was a UB $11, and since the starting chips are higher, and the play is better than the crapshoot party can be, I gave the guy credit for a bigger hand ... I ended up getting 3rd in that tournament so I'm still confident in my laydown ... whether or not I went down the right path towards that laydown, is a big question.
Snoog - I realize that I'm giving AK or AQ great odds to call a flop here, but that wasn't the point of the min-reraise. The point was to a. thin the field and b. give him a chance to re-reraise with a HUGE hand, I figured a big pair would re-raise a lot here, and AK or AQ would smooth call. The problem with trying to give AK or AQ the incorrect odds, is that it commits too many chips if I'm up against AA/KK/QQ.
Looking back on all this stuff, I probably should've just called, playing mostly for set value, but also possibly go for it should the flop come all unders
Posted Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:22 am GMT by red_pen
OP doesn't say how much he had to put in the pot to call the re-reraise pre-flop and whether or not it was worth calling just for set value. You've got to figure him for a high pocket pair here, and if you set, depending on how much he's put in already you'll prolly get the rest of his stack, unless the board is draw-tastic. You need 8-1 or thereabouts, including money in the pot. Would it have been worth it odds-wise to call?
His re-raise suggests it not AK or AQ; merely suggests I might add - as Snoogins says you gave him great odds to call (and he didn't), but that's not necessarily a bad thing if it helps you narrow his range. OPs initial re-raise might be AK (at least villian might see it this way) and if OP calls the re-reraise, instead of folding, this is the hand I would put him on. If villian is holding KK-QQ he's not going to like an ace on the flop which will hit 1 in 4 times. Could you bluff this situation ? Would he buy it, or would he be too pot committed and think "what the hell"?
Depending on the size of the re-raise I think you have enough options not to fold and you'll be able to judge his hand strength better once you've seen the flop. I'd call for another 300-400 chips or thereabouts.
Posted Tue Nov 15, 2005 2:14 pm GMT by racquet000
I would smooth call with JJ pray for overs and hope to get out of the hand cheaply  But honestly I realy dont like commiting alot of chips to semi weak hands. JJ is strong but it also is going to be destroyed alot. I smooth call and hope for the best.
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