Posted Mon Nov 14, 2005 12:54 pm GMT by lwestatbus
I need some advice on playing when I flop top pair. I play low limit ring games (0.50/1.00) and have pretty high starting hand requirements. Among some other hands that aren't relevant here I will play big aces and big kings. When I flop top pair with these hands I either have an ace or king kicker or a big kicker to a paired ace or king. I will bet these hands or raise on the flop and usually keep betting them (but not necessarily raising them).
However, I think that I'm losing money on this strategy. I'm afraid that I don't have detailed enough records to know how I do overall with these hands but I think that I'm losing. The usual winning hand when I'm beat is two pair (go figure) and sometimes trips. BTW: I think that I'm pretty aware of different players' styles if they've been at the table for a round or so.
Anyway, how do YOU play top pair with a big kicker from the flop to the showdown? When do you lay them down? This is definitely an open ended question but I'll appreciate everyone's thoughts.
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Posted Mon Nov 14, 2005 1:46 pm GMT by twofotisx
If you have high starting hand requirements then I'd say since you'd have little to worry about from over cards, i'd mostly be worred about flush draws, straights, or trips. For example if there are four cards to a flush on the board, even with top pair I'll normally fold unless I'm heads up and can put my oppenent on a hand. As far as losing to two pair, sometimes on a loose table it's hard to read someone for two pair 7's and 2's, so sometimes I think there's not too much you can do about it beyond reading your oppenents well.
Posted Mon Nov 14, 2005 2:02 pm GMT by Dave B
When talking low limit holdem, are you:
1) doing everything possible to limit the field before the river? Raise, reraise, check raise?
or
2) accepting that TPTK is just a pair and a pair will only win against 5-6 callers 20-30% of the time
There have been posts in the past about berating players. If I am constantly getting run down by many holding junk, I will start ripping on people. They might still chasing others, but if you can get 1-2 to lay down against you, that will greatly impact your results.
Posted Mon Nov 14, 2005 2:33 pm GMT by tame_deuces
If the pot is big enough, I'll see the showdown with top pair bottom kicker if I have too, unless I'm in horrible position. 
In my case, usually it goes like this. Quick look at the texture of the flop to try and get a picture of how strong my hand is. Is it rags and my pair, or is it 8,Q,A to my AJ etc.
Even so, since I usually have been the preflop aggressor so I bet out on almost any flop or raise bets made on the flop.
I use pokertracker and programs for overlaying stats on the pokertables so I also check if those who are now aggressively involved in the hands are LAGs, TAGs, Loose Passive's or something along those lines.
I think the turn is by far the most important street for TPTK, first I try to notice if the turn card did in any way complete a draw. In any way I'll usually bet, if raised here it is important to know who did the raising, if it is the table maniac I have no problem re-raising, he might just be holding a weak ace. If the loose passive guy just awakened, I figure something is up, if a tight/aggressive player is out...things aren't looking up...if I'm checkraised people usually hold two/pair or a set, but at my limits I usually do a calldown anyway..often the pots are big (as in BBs) and laying could be disastrous.
I also think the aggressive line is always the easiest to play...wrestle for control on the flop and play a tough game and alot of people will become passive when in the hand with you.
Still, the important issue to me is pot size...if the pot is big enough, a fold is disastrous since you don't have to win often for it to be worth calling down. If the pot is small and the loose passive guy who almost never bets just awakened when a third heart fell and I have no redraw...well...it probably isn't a very big failure to lay down in this small pot.
Endline for me: I don't lay down top pair with top/good kickers very often unless I have very good reason to believe I am beat and the pot isn't very big.
Posted Mon Nov 14, 2005 3:47 pm GMT by UrAteUp
When I get TPTK I usually don't want anyone to draw out on me for fear of 2 pair, a set or some type of draw so I generally bet heavy to when I made my TPTK hand. If everyone folds then I win a small pot, but if some stay then I try to make them pay a premium price to see their next card. You do not want to try to slow play with TPTK. As Dave said, with several in the pot it is not a hand favored to win often. Get people off the pot. It is better to win small then to lose.
Posted Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:24 pm GMT by suitedaces84
It depends on many factors. The number of players in the pot, the size of the pot, the coordination of the board, the oppoents in the hand and my image at the table.
My new favorite line is calling down HU w/position. I'll put in a river raise if the board is not scary. HU you don't need to "charge the draws" if they're betting into you. They'll usually end up charging themselves by continuing their bluff on the river. Example: you hold 8  7 . And call the CO's raise from the BB. It's two the the flop which is: J T 2 . IMO, the best line here is either betting every street unless raised. He'll have AQ/AK often enough and be willing to give them up often enough to make betting out best, IMO. He'll probably bet when checked to and you'll get a decent return on your semi-bluff.
If you look at the hand from the CO's point of view and say he's holding a solid made hand like KJ or AJ, what would his best line be?
Would it be to raise the flop, bet the turn and river (unless the board gets ugly)? He raises the flop you call. Then you check-call the turn and check-fold the river when you miss. So he makes 2BB when you miss. When you hit you bet the river, he calls and loses 3BB.
Now let's say he really wants to teach you a lesson so he waits 'til the turn to raise and really punishes you! After being raised on the turn you give up pretty easy when the river is a brick. He gains 2.5BB. When you hit you bet and he losses 3.5BB.
Now let's say he decides to be nice and just call down (maybe he puts in a raise on a blank river, but that's not relavant because you're folding). He makes 2.5BB when you miss and loses only that when you hit.
The lesson here: the line he takes vs a draw has little relation to the amount he'll win when his hand is best. There is no way to "protect" his hand either. The only thing his line effects is the amount he'll lose when he's beat. In this case the best line is the one that loses the least when beat. Raising here is especially bad against a tight player who will often fold a worse made hand or bluff. It's also bad to pop a player who is betting to "find out where he's at". There is also a chance that TPGK is not the best hand in which case raising is also bad. If you're the CO you need to consider all of the BB's possible holdings. Do this, then ask yourself how many of them raising is really best against.
If the you were the CO in the hand above and your oppoent usually gave up after the turn raising the turn would be best. If your oppoent would cap every street with pocket 3's 'cause he put you on AK capping every street would be best. But vs the majority of oppoents calling down is best.
I know this doesn't relate to the general question. And in most situations raising the flop or turn is better than calling down. My point is that there is no best line w/TPGK. You have to deal with each situation individually. And like most things in poker the "correct" answer can usually be determined with nothing more than a little thought and common sense.
Now about the board. If you hold A  K . And the flop is K  Q J . You don't have much equity vs the holdings of a sane player. There are a lot of made hands better than yours, and if your hand is best it's probably not best by much. Play accordingly.
My guess is that:
-you have too much trouble folding these things in multiway pots or when scare card hits and passive players come alive. It's rarely correct to fold to a single bet with a hand like TPTK. It's also rarely correct to call more than one on the river.
-you think you need "protect" them in small HU pots. In a 3-bet 5 way pot a hand like TPTK often needs help surviving. In a HU pot a pair of kings with a queen kicker in close to a monster. Remember pot odds. In a small pot it will be much less likely that your oppoent is correct to draw (draw for two pair, a gutshot, etc...).
Posted Mon Nov 21, 2005 12:25 pm GMT by lwestatbus
Some very interesting insights here--thanks to all who replied. The replies had me think about exactly what was bothering me and I've got a little more information.
First, I am definitely aware of threats on the board like two or three suited cards (let alone four), coordinated cards, or a pair. Ditto on the style of play from the opponents and having a tight player spring into action suddenly.
When I get TPGK or TPTK I am always aggressive and definitely run a lot of people off. The problem is that most of those who stay have something. There is no more sinking feeling than betting out every round and then getting raised on the river. And, again, it seems to me that I'm losing these hands way more than I think I should be. But I don't see any other way to play them. If I check the turn I may gain information by finding out that somebody is willing to bet but usually also give somebody a free card. Plus, whether or not there is a bet or the turn I still don't know why there was no bet when we get to the river. If I'm ahead I've lost money that might go in the pot.
BTW: It also SEEMS (without any valid records) that when I play Ax from an unraised blind, pair the Ace, and play passively I end up making my second pair.
Lost half my buy-in this morning on two hands when I flopped a set and got out kicked. I should have seen the flop each time and should have had reason to expect to be ahead each time, but not.
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