Should I have bet this Turn? |
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Posted Mon Nov 14, 2005 10:54 pm GMT by Dat_Dude
$5+$1 (real money), hand #1,475,052,751
Knox City Single Table Tournament, 14 Nov 2005 09:42 PM
View Previous hand for this table.
Seat 1: coachmofb ($1,440 in chips)
Seat 2: boy golden ($985 in chips)
Seat 3: wally051680 ($1,385 in chips)
Seat 4: griboyedov ($1,500 in chips)
Seat 5: iveysment0r ($1,275 in chips)
Seat 6: dieselia JHJS ($1,560 in chips)
Seat 7: beckiejg ($1,675 in chips)
Seat 8: pokkerdog ($1,490 in chips)
Seat 9: Pearley ($2,290 in chips)
Seat 10: riverridin51 ($1,400 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
wally051680 posts blind ($10), griboyedov posts blind ($20).
PRE-FLOP
iveysment0r folds, dieselia bets $80, beckiejg folds, pokkerdog folds, Pearley bets $140, riverridin51 folds, coachmofb folds, boy golden folds, wally051680 folds, griboyedov calls $120, dieselia calls $60.
FLOP board cards 10S6D9S
griboyedov checks, dieselia bets $450, Pearley folds, griboyedov calls $450.
TURN board cards 10S6D9S9D
griboyedov checks, dieselia checks.
RIVER board cards 10S6D9S9D8D
griboyedov checks, dieselia bets $350, griboyedov bets $910 and is all-in, dieselia calls $560.
SHOWDOWN
griboyedov shows 8H8S
dieselia shows JHJS
griboyedov wins $3,150.
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Posted Mon Nov 14, 2005 10:59 pm GMT by Dat_Dude
Obviously this was very early in the SnG, so there was no information on any players to note.
I bet the flop so huge because I wanted to chase off any flush or straight draws and just wanted to take it down there.
Did I play 4th and 5th street totally wrong? After the guy won the hand, he admitted he thought his play was terrible, but I just feel my play was way off here. If I had just checked that River, I only lose about 600 as opposed to my entire stack. That is where I would say I screwed up pretty bad, but I thought a small bet would get a call out of him if he was on A10 or K10.
Posted Mon Nov 14, 2005 11:20 pm GMT by racquet000
I would have kept pumping that pot.....
Posted Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:54 am GMT by Soup_dog
I don't blame you for checking after he smooth called the flop. You played it just about the way I would have.
Posted Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:13 am GMT by Dat_Dude
I am trying not to focus on the results in this case.
Would you have bet that River after Villain went check-check, or would you have just checked it down as well?
Posted Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:24 am GMT by red_pen
I can't fault the check on the turn as his flat call on the flop would have set the alarm bells off in my head - but i give away way too many free cards.
However u shud have checked the river. I can't see any hand that you beat calling, but there are plenty of hands out there that which might have called the flop bet and have you beat.
Posted Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:39 am GMT by Dave B
The bet on the flop being called scared the heck out of me too. I would check the turn after the board paired-he had something, A9 A10 just as reasonable as a flush draw.
I also dont bet the river. QJ is also a "reasonable" call to a pot bet on that flop with him assuming that he has 14 outs.
Either way, he was a dope. He made a horrible call and got lucky. Unless you go all in on the turn, any bet will be called (him being a proven idiot).
I like your bet on the flop, I check the turn, and check the river. I call a river bet of 500-700. Anything else I have to fold. Any 7, 9, diamonds, QJ, 2 pair (J  10 ) all have me beat.
Posted Tue Nov 15, 2005 12:03 pm GMT by Soup_dog
Thats one of the big holes in my game. I always forget the "he will only call with a winning hand." rule. I can see why you would want to check the river too. I know I would have probably bet though... incorrectly.
Posted Tue Nov 15, 2005 12:27 pm GMT by Aves
You should most definitely bet the turn. I don't understand why a call on such a draw heavy board scares people. That usually doesn't mean he's slowplaying a monster. More likely, he has a medium strength hand like top or middle pair - maybe with a gutshot straight draw, or some other kind of drawing hand. The big blind checked both the flop and the river. I doubt he would do that with a set or 2 pair as you could easily check behind and outdraw him. Even with a made straight he would be wary of checking the turn with 2 flush draws out there or the chance of hero possibly filling up.
Bet the turn and check behind on the river. You got position, use it. If he raises you on the turn or river, reevaluate.
Posted Tue Nov 15, 2005 12:52 pm GMT by Dave B
OOPS, good point. I missed the position part of it. I saw him calling so I assumed he was behind and not in the blind.
On the turn, I can go either way. I still likely check-no reason betting into trip 9s. Like you said Aves, he could be on middle pair, then you are drawing to 2 outs.
I DEFINATELY do not bet the river.
For those that want to bet the turn, how much? All in? 500 again (now 1/3 pot)? Do you want another call or not?
Posted Tue Nov 15, 2005 1:25 pm GMT by Aves
It depends if you're willing to go broke with this hand. I personally feel I am ahead enough of the time to outweigh going broke. Therefore, I would bet around 500-700 knowing that if I get raised on the turn or if he bets out on the river I have to call. The relatively small bet is to induce a call from a weaker hand than yours. An all-in bet will probly get most weaker hands to fold and only hands that are better than yours to call.
Posted Tue Nov 15, 2005 1:34 pm GMT by BeerWench13
Without any information on your opponent, this is a tough hand to play. However, you had position on him and I would bet on the turn if he checked it. His check/call on the flop would definitely give me the impression that he was on a draw. The board pairing would be a bit scary, but I'd have to put a bet out there to see where he was and one that would represent that I just boated or quaded up. If he raises, I would have to reevaluate. If he calls, then I get to see the river and hope I do boat up. No boat, though, no bet on the river.
Again, it's a tough hand to play early in a SNG when you don't have any information on your opponents and get that kind of call on the flop.
Posted Tue Nov 15, 2005 2:06 pm GMT by racquet000
Even though its only a $5 sng thats more reason to tweak your game into a more agressive style. You started out agressive but then kinda gave up on the hand. If you put him on a drawing hand you have to bet it the whole way. Infact the pot was a little over $1000 on the turn and it might have been grounds to move all in. Pick it up there. But i have a very agressive sng style.  But if not pushing you would have to bet more then on the flop so you bet 600ish he either calls or is left with 310. Which hes going to call almost anything on the river. So i think pushing on the turn would have been the best move. Even with it being a $5 sng i dont see him reraiseing preflop with a 9 in his hand.
Aaron,
Posted Tue Nov 15, 2005 3:35 pm GMT by tame_deuces
When people check it usually means what it means, that they don't have too strong a hand. Can't run around seeing monsters just because someone called the flop and checked the turn, seriously...more hands you beat do that than hands that beat you usually.
And villain did get a _good_ piece of the flop...it was a flop that was likely to miss high cards, he has a pair and a gutshot draw and 2 outs for a set that is almost guaranteed to be good. This is a pretty decent flop for a pair of 8s. And the river card he got for free, so we can't say anything about that.
Sure..the preflop action would have had alarm bells going off in my head, but most people forget the preflop action when they make decisions anyway.
Apart from that, I think you would have gotten a much more fair evaluation of this hand if you didn't include the results. 
Posted Tue Nov 15, 2005 4:53 pm GMT by supafrey
yes, you should have
Posted Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:00 am GMT by red_pen
| Alves wrote: | | You should most definitely bet the turn. I don't understand why a call on such a draw heavy board scares people. That usually doesn't mean he's slowplaying a monster. More likely, he has a medium strength hand like top or middle pair - maybe with a gutshot straight draw, or some other kind of drawing hand. The big blind checked both the flop and the river*. I doubt he would do that with a set or 2 pair as you could easily check behind and outdraw him. |
*I assume you meant to say turn.
There were 3 to the flop, the BB, an EP raiser and a MP reraiser. If BB flops a set there I'm guessing he checks it - every time - the flop is almost certainly going to be bet by one of the other two pre-flop raisers. Hero's flop bet drives out the pre-flop re-raiser's AK (or whatever) and the big blind calls. What sort of hand are you putting the BB on here to call a pot bet post-flop, after having called a raise and a reraise pre-flop? This is why i think his call is scary. (Also if he has the nut flush draw BB might be tempted to check-raise all-in - he can't be much worse than a coin flip - and i see it happen all the time - that he didn't makes me less inclined to believe he's on a draw)
When the turn comes there is 1300 in the pot and both hero and villian have 1000 or so behind. If you bet the turn how much are you going to put in that makes villian fold a draw? (That's if you want him to fold - maybe you want him to call - I can't make my mind up about this point as both have their merits) I think the only possibility is all-in. If he calls an all in with 1 card to come you're drawing either extremely thinly or he draws perhaps at a 5-1 shot. If he folds you take the pot. If you check you prolly take the pot down 4 times in 5 anyway, and don't put your tourney at risk. So is it really worth the extra chips you might win if he calls with a draw and misses? I don't think so. I play it safe, check it down, and look at his cards. If he's a dork and you missed an opportunity or he hit an unlikely river so be it. Make a note.
Posted Wed Nov 16, 2005 4:26 pm GMT by tame_deuces
| red_pen wrote: | | If you check you prolly take the pot down 4 times in 5 anyway, and don't put your tourney at risk. So is it really worth the extra chips you might win if he calls with a draw and misses? |
If you think you win a hand 4 out of 5 times when it is checked down then bet it.
Posted Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:38 pm GMT by red_pen
| Quote: | red_pen wrote:
If you check you prolly take the pot down 4 times in 5 anyway, and don't put your tourney at risk. So is it really worth the extra chips you might win if he calls with a draw and misses?
If you think you win a hand 4 out of 5 times when it is checked down then bet it.
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wrong - smart, succinct, but off mark
your argument supposes that a checked down hand is the same as a hand you bet and is called. it is not. big mistake - but you knew this.
Posted Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:36 am GMT by Phil14312
Do you want to play for your stack with this hand...if so, push the turn. If not, try to get a free show-down.
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