On Bubble with Aces...what's the best course of action? |
|
Posted Thu Nov 17, 2005 5:51 pm GMT by pokerpup
Hi All! Long time lurker and I want thank everyone who consistently posts their ideas and strategy, it has helped me shaped my game into a small stakes winner!!
This situation came up twice last night while I was playing NL $5 SNGs on Stars.
On the bubble so 4 players left 3 get paid...
Situation #1
Blinds are $75/$150
UTG HERO ~$1900 with  
UTG+1 ~$3500
SB ~$1980
BB ~$3000
HERO raises $450 (could have pushed, but then I would only get the blinds, Aces are wasted that way.)
UTG+1 folds
SB Calls
BB folds
Flop    ~Pot $1050
so the flop looks good, did he come in with a flush draw? Well let give him bad odds to call...If I bet the pot I am essentially committed, but half the pot isn't enought to drive anyone out. So I decide to go all in, i was more than happy with winning $500 at this point.
Surprise, SB calls and flips over   ....My read was right cause I don't believe a weak J or AJ would call unless he/she has something clubs. But i had the top pair with a backdoor nut flush with Ac. But no help came for me...Turn  and river  . So the way I see it, I was gonna have to call with my nut straight at the river anyways, so was this one of those hands I should have been happy taking down the blinds, especially in the bubble?? This seems to happen very often when I am in the bubble, and raising it 3-4x the BB seem to only get calls by other very strong hands or someone with "sooted" cards hoping to catch the flush. All advice is welcome. Thanks!
Did you know that participating in a poker forum can help you improve your own game? Be it by sharing experiences or simply asking for help, participation in a forum helps you focus and keep 'on topic' which will help you improve your game. You can learn from other players feedback and from their experiences. Why the THP poker forums? We offer one of the best managed texas holdem poker forums available, and the community within is far more friendly than those typicaly found on other sites. We've made a 'lurkers edition' of the poker forum available here on Holdem Poker Online, but we encourage all visitors to register and join in on the conversations on TexasHoldem-Poker.com
Posted Thu Nov 17, 2005 5:57 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
I don't see any problems with your play. He called before the flop with a terrible hand, and he called without odds on his draw on the flop. You made the better play and he got lucky. Tough spot.
Posted Thu Nov 17, 2005 6:20 pm GMT by fiezk
you did everything you could. Just busted out 4th in a SnG in a similar situation myself. That time someone called my all-in bet on the flop with just A high(!) against my pp and caught his ace on the turn.
In that situation, my over bet got me thinking that he somehow must have taken that as a sign of weakness. "I know you haven't hit this flop so I'll bet so big there's no way you can call me", or something.
That being said, there's no way a decent player, or any sane human being for that matter, would call your raise and bet with that hand. Again, you did everything right.
Posted Thu Nov 17, 2005 6:24 pm GMT by Soup_dog
Weeeeell.... Are you happier with this result or winning the blinds? I think the preflop raise probably should have been a bit more than 3xBB. Of course he was a twit to call in the first place but a bigger raise may have pushed him off. It all depends on exactly how BIG of a twit he was. LOL. Since you are essentially the short stack and on the bubble I would have pushed with pocket rockets.
Posted Thu Nov 17, 2005 6:34 pm GMT by UrAteUp
Push with that AA pre-flop. If you set on AA too often it does get beat. AA is not always the greatest hand. It is the best to start with for sure but not always the best to finish with. I would have at least stole the blinds and went with the all-in pre-flop.
Posted Thu Nov 17, 2005 6:40 pm GMT by bluef0x
| UrAteUp wrote: | | Push with that AA pre-flop. If you set on AA too often it does get beat. AA is not always the greatest hand. It is the best to start with for sure but not always the best to finish with. I would have at least stole the blinds and went with the all-in pre-flop. |
You don't want just the blinds here... ?!
Depends on how the table is playing but a 450 raise is good, I might make it a little bit more but not too much- I want a call and can push any flop.
Posted Thu Nov 17, 2005 6:46 pm GMT by pokerpup
But doesn't that defeat the purpose of maximizing your return? $225 extra in blinds isn't going to help me get ITM. The extra $500 might be give me more breathing room. But I would still be the short stacked. Raising all-in this situation, I believe would have only gotten me blinds, cause the big stacks folded to 3x bb raise and I am also assuming that the would fold that too. How often would I be getting a decent hand like AA to increase my chips? At the rate things where going, not many. If I counted how many contested pots I was involved in before the bubble, it wouldn't go past my ten fingers. This doesn't include the occassional blind steal. Gotta get lucky at the right time I guess  ....playing correct poker doesn't beat luck in this case. I just don't understand why people enjoy laying it all on the line on a draw (most commonly a flush) when it theoretically comes 30% of the time. "No Guts No Glory"??
Posted Thu Nov 17, 2005 7:07 pm GMT by Soup_dog
True true true. I understand what you are saying because I used to think the same way. In this situation with your chipstack size I think the push is you best option. If you had more chips and could survive some donk "sucking out" on you, I would say the preflop raise was fine. In this situation though you want to either steal the blinds or end up in a situation where you "dominate" the other player.
In other words you want to drive out everyone else unless they have something like AK, AQ, AJ or a pocket pair. Those hands would be the only ones likely to call a preflop "all-in" and you would have them "dominated"
Just my two cents though... I am far from an expert.
Posted Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:04 pm GMT by Phil14312
Looks fine to me.
Just one tip, if you leave out the results of the hand, it takes away any bias responders might have when they look at the results. I find it makes for a more interesting discussion.
Posted Thu Nov 17, 2005 10:21 pm GMT by Hurricane Ham
So any time you guys get aces you just push pre-flop?
How about a little post flop play.
Everything looked fine there, nothing you can do. Pushing isn't a good way to maximize profit there, chances of someone else having a hand big enough to call for 2/3 of their stack is slim. 450-600 pre flop, push the flop.
Posted Fri Nov 18, 2005 12:38 am GMT by Soup_dog
| Hurricane Ham wrote: | So any time you guys get aces you just push pre-flop?
How about a little post flop play.
Everything looked fine there, nothing you can do. Pushing isn't a good way to maximize profit there, chances of someone else having a hand big enough to call for 2/3 of their stack is slim. 450-600 pre flop, push the flop. |
Nope. Thats not what I said. I just dont think he has the chip stack to be getting cute at this point. If he bets big preflop, gets a dangerous flop and wants to push people out, he is SOL because of a lack of chips. By the end of the hand he is going to be "all-in" no matter what. At this point he is covered by EVERYONE else at the table. So he sure as heck better make sure that anyone who dares to call him thinks they have a top notch hand... preflop. If he had the chip lead he could take his time and try and suck them dry without worrying about them sucking out on him.
Posted Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:14 am GMT by Jauron
The problem wasn't with your raise, but with the button calling. (BTW why are we calling the button UTG+1 here? he has the best position possible)
Once the button called everything went wrong for you, the SB now has some pot odds to call with a crap hand. I'm suprised the BB didn't call for value as well.
The raise itself depends on the table, if 3x the BB isn't enough to push out poor hands on that table, your raise might have been weak. Only you know that for sure.
Outside of that, nothing you can do here, sometimes you just go broke from some guy who took a huge risk for all his chips and it works out for him.
Posted Fri Nov 18, 2005 9:11 am GMT by Nut Flush
You raise to a total of $450 or an additional $450 for a total of $600?
Either way, guy made two horrible calls and sucked out on you. I do not agree with pushing all in preflop here. Maybe if it was still 10 handed, some donkey would probably call. But 4 handed you don't want just the blinds. Good playing by you, just turned out bad.
By the way, was this Aaron Kanter you were playing against? :D
Posted Wed Nov 23, 2005 2:42 am GMT by AHBrownell
Sometimes in the tournaments I've played in, large stacks are more likely to call an all-in then a small raise. Big stacks like picking off the small stacks. If you pushed you might get a brave big stack who would call you with like 77 or something and you would win 6/7 times.
I am really starting to find AA hard to play myself. A lot of the time they seem like the best hand only to get sucked out to a player with a straight, two pair, or a flush who is thinking you are bluffing, or a player who flops a low set.
I happened to hit a few really bad AA lately and lost $400 with the hand over the past few days. I felt like maybe a few of the hands I overplayed, but for the most part this hand is just tough to throw away against unpredictable players. I had AA vs TTT today and AA vs a low end straight (of course he called 4x BB with 76s  ) and AA vs KK66. Ah well - supposedly its the best hand in hold-em.
Posted Wed Nov 23, 2005 5:12 am GMT by Muck
I think this was played okay. As a couple of people have mentioned the pre-flop raise could have done with maybe being 1-2 more BB’s and I agree, but I don’t think an all-in push would have been the most profitable play.
With a premium PP I’m after one caller for as much as they’re willing pay. I don’t want more callers and I don’t want just the blinds, the worst of these two outcomes depends on the size of the blinds.
Posted Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:16 pm GMT by nikorami
On the bubble if you get that hand you shove it allin. At this point in any tournament, not just this one, you have to make a bad call pay from the get go. Just like one of the previous posts, a big stack will calll with a marginal hand that you will dominate and win the majority of the time or you will get a smaller stack calling only with a smaller pair or AK. If you try getting too cute you will get busted just like you did. A flush draw, a straight draw, even a small pair will call because they are desparate. Again, until you are in the money, don't get cute...its just not worth it. At least for me, I am often the best player at that point and I don't want luck to bust my play; I want to control the action and I'll take the blinds because I will have the skill to still make the money. IMHO
Posted Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:40 pm GMT by tame_deuces
Raising 3xBB with AA isn't 'getting cute' though. 
People should stop fearing luck so much and try to get some action on their good hands instead.
Alot of stuff people do to 'minimize' the amount of suckouts is counterproductive because they end up minimizing their own profit in the long run.
Don't fear doing the correct thing because you might lose.
Posted Sun Dec 04, 2005 7:36 pm GMT by snoogins47
| nikorami wrote: | | On the bubble if you get that hand you shove it allin. At this point in any tournament, not just this one, you have to make a bad call pay from the get go. Just like one of the previous posts, a big stack will calll with a marginal hand that you will dominate and win the majority of the time or you will get a smaller stack calling only with a smaller pair or AK. If you try getting too cute you will get busted just like you did. A flush draw, a straight draw, even a small pair will call because they are desparate. Again, until you are in the money, don't get cute...its just not worth it. At least for me, I am often the best player at that point and I don't want luck to bust my play; I want to control the action and I'll take the blinds because I will have the skill to still make the money. IMHO |
Yeah, I sure hate taking the stone cold preflop nuts and having to play post flop when I'm the best player at the table. Our skill gains us a lot more when we minimize the decisions our opponents have to make, and our skill can obviously let us wait for spots better than this.. I mean, you ONLY have the best possible hand.
Posted Sun Dec 04, 2005 9:03 pm GMT by bluef0x
| nikorami wrote: | | On the bubble if you get that hand you shove it allin. At this point in any tournament, not just this one, you have to make a bad call pay from the get go. Just like one of the previous posts, a big stack will calll with a marginal hand that you will dominate and win the majority of the time or you will get a smaller stack calling only with a smaller pair or AK. If you try getting too cute you will get busted just like you did. A flush draw, a straight draw, even a small pair will call because they are desparate. Again, until you are in the money, don't get cute...its just not worth it. At least for me, I am often the best player at that point and I don't want luck to bust my play; I want to control the action and I'll take the blinds because I will have the skill to still make the money. IMHO |
You don't have the skill, go back 2 spaces and wait 3 turns.
|
|
