Too Many Pre-Flop Raises? |
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Posted Sun Nov 27, 2005 1:41 pm GMT by markusgc
I've been coming up on this situation a little bit lately. Maybe y'all can give me your takes on it.
I'll raise pre-flop with a premium hand. Once in a while, a just sub-premium (K-9 suited, for instance). Anyway, how about when you get great hole cards a few hands in a row?
Personally, I start thinking that people are getting sick of my raises (maybe because I get fed up with them by others who ALWAYS pre-flop raise). Does it lessen the value of my cards? Will people start calling with marginal hands?
Also, how about raises in the blinds? I won't often raise in the big blind. Small blind yeah.
Still refining things, so any insight would be appreciated.
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Posted Sun Nov 27, 2005 2:25 pm GMT by Muck
I think I’d describe K9s as less than just sub-premium even with position :
But regardless of that, when you get a cluster for raising hands that get mucked each time you will build an image. This isn’t always a bad thing since it can induce an opponent to make an unwise re-raise into your monster to try and keep you honest.
As for when to raise from the blinds there's not much to say since it’s very dependent on the situation. The only pointer I could give is to bare in mind you will have a poor position post flop.
I’m also curious so to what's better about a raise from the SB compare to a BB.
Posted Sun Nov 27, 2005 8:46 pm GMT by markusgc
| Muck wrote: | | I’m also curious so to what's better about a raise from the SB compare to a BB. |
Not exactly sure why. I guess it doesn't seem so greedy. I also read on Caro's page that he advises against raising in the big blind.
Finally, there is my ignorance factor. Hence the public plea for help.
I'll raise with that K/9 if I haven't played in a while, just to make it a little stronger. If another king comes out, it's usually assumed that I have a better kicker than a 9 because I raised.
But, if I didn't want to know more, I wouldn't have asked.
Thanks!
Posted Sun Nov 27, 2005 9:13 pm GMT by TheSalche
bad idea to raise from SB with anything except top 5 hands, and thats a little stretchy
reason is, you're out of position, and if you have a hand like KQ,AJ,KJ,JQ, etc, you're going to miss the flop a lot, and even when you do hit it, you may be against somebody with a better hand than you, but they're in position to extract more chips from you
ideally you even limp with AK or AQ, unless there are 3 or 4 limpers
concerning preflop raises multiple hands, say you go on a rush like AQ, AK, KK ... raise more on that last one, because people are more likely to call you with worse hands since you've been raising so much
Posted Sun Nov 27, 2005 9:53 pm GMT by supafrey
yeah use multi raises to your advantage, instead of as a hinderance.
Don't even DARE raising a third time in a row on any poker table (400nl or less, I guess) except with a nice pocket pair or AK, perhaps. They will not respect continuation bets from you (no way you have anything good 3 times in a row...)
Posted Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:35 am GMT by Muck
| markusgc wrote: | | Muck wrote: | | I’m also curious so to what's better about a raise from the SB compare to a BB. |
Not exactly sure why. I guess it doesn't seem so greedy. I also read on Caro's page that he advises against raising in the big blind.
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I’m guess he advises against raising from the BB and just as much, if not more, from the SB.
Anyway. The BB has a fractional position advantage over the SB, which increase for every player who folds. If it folds around to the SB this is illustrated very well (it’s a similar situation to heads up play).
If the SB just calls an aggressive player on the BB will often raise. The BB knows the SB might be limping just because the odds are good even though their cards are poor.
Many good players advise that, when heads up from the SB, a raise or fold is best since a call with usually just result in being raised and having to fold 2 bets rather than 1. Even if the SB calls the raise the BB still has position on the flop.
Posted Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:46 pm GMT by Skribbles
Here is a perfect example of how raising consecutive hands can be adventageous (sp?). In hand 3 the guy was sick of my raises and went on tilt. Every single play he made was just awful because of the previous 2 hands.
Hand 1:
100 NL Texas Hold'em - Tuesday, November 29, 16:10:34 EDT 2005
Table Table 64879 (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 10 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 2: Dave_Babych8 ( $103.20 )
Seat 3: AISIM ( $51.13 )
Seat 4: linds2223 ( $95.65 )
Seat 5: thormentor ( $121.80 )
Seat 6: nolemannel1 ( $133.10 )
Seat 7: mrme_thane ( $103.45 )
Seat 8: mediaguy555 ( $206.85 )
Seat 9: RichG28 ( $125.50 )
Seat 10: Adrian20XX ( $99.50 )
Dave_Babych8 posts small blind $0.50.
AISIM posts big blind $1.
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Dave_Babych8  
>You have options at Table 65809 Table!.
linds2223 folds.
thormentor calls $1.
nolemannel1 calls $1.
mrme_thane folds.
mediaguy555 folds.
RichG28 folds.
Adrian20XX folds.
Dave_Babych8 calls $0.50.
>You have options at Table 65992 Table!.
AISIM checks.
** Dealing Flop **   
Dave_Babych8 checks.
AISIM checks.
thormentor bets $4.
nolemannel1 calls $4.
Dave_Babych8 calls $4.
AISIM folds.
** Dealing Turn ** 
Dave_Babych8 checks.
thormentor bets $15.
nolemannel1 calls $15.
>You have options at Table 65009 Table!.
Dave_Babych8 raises $50.
thormentor folds.
>You have options at Table 65809 Table!.
nolemannel1 did not respond in time.
nolemannel1 folds.
Dave_Babych8 does not show cards.
Dave_Babych8 wins $93
Hand 2:
$100 NL Texas Hold'em - Tuesday, November 29, 16:12:10 EDT 2005
Table Table 64879 (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 2: Dave_Babych8 ( $141.20 )
Seat 3: AISIM ( $50.13 )
Seat 4: linds2223 ( $95.65 )
Seat 5: thormentor ( $101.80 )
Seat 6: nolemannel1 ( $113.10 )
Seat 7: mrme_thane ( $103.45 )
Seat 8: mediaguy555 ( $206.85 )
Seat 9: RichG28 ( $125.50 )
Seat 10: Adrian20XX ( $99.50 )
AISIM posts small blind $0.50.
linds2223 posts big blind $1.
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Dave_Babych8  
>You have options at Table 65809 Table!.
thormentor calls $1.
mrme_thane calls $1.
mediaguy555 raises $6.
RichG28 folds.
Adrian20XX folds.
Dave_Babych8 raises $15.
AISIM folds.
linds2223 folds.
thormentor calls $14.
mrme_thane folds.
mediaguy555 folds.
** Dealing Flop **   
thormentor checks.
Dave_Babych8 bets $35.
thormentor folds.
Dave_Babych8 does not show cards.
Dave_Babych8 wins $71.60
Hand 3:
$100 NL Texas Hold'em - Tuesday, November 29, 16:12:57 EDT 2005
Table Table 64879 (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 2: Dave_Babych8 ( $162.80 )
Seat 3: AISIM ( $49.63 )
Seat 4: linds2223 ( $94.65 )
Seat 5: thormentor ( $86.80 )
Seat 6: nolemannel1 ( $113.10 )
Seat 7: mrme_thane ( $102.45 )
Seat 8: mediaguy555 ( $200.85 )
Seat 9: RichG28 ( $125.50 )
Seat 10: Adrian20XX ( $99.50 )
linds2223 posts small blind $0.50.
thormentor posts big blind $1.
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Dave_Babych8  
nolemannel1 folds.
mrme_thane folds.
mediaguy555 folds.
RichG28 folds.
>You have options at Table 65009 Table!.
Adrian20XX folds.
smooothymon has joined the table.
Dave_Babych8 raises $4.
AISIM folds.
linds2223 folds.
>You have options at Table 65009 Table!.
thormentor calls $3.
** Dealing Flop **  
thormentor checks.
Dave_Babych8 bets $6.
thormentor calls $6.
** Dealing Turn ** 
thormentor checks.
Dave_Babych8 bets $15.
>You have options at Table 65009 Table!.
thormentor raises $45.
Dave_Babych8 raises $60.
>You have options at Table 65009 Table!.
thormentor is all-In.
Dave_Babych8 calls $1.80.
** Dealing River ** 
Dave_Babych8 shows a pair of queens.
thormentor doesn't show  a pair of nines.
Dave_Babych8 wins $171.10 from the main pot with a pair of queens.
Posted Tue Nov 29, 2005 6:41 pm GMT by markusgc
thanks for the advice and the explanations to go with it. it really helped.
mark
Posted Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:54 pm GMT by lwestatbus
This was a really interesting question. Someday I hope to have enough premium hands to have to make this decision.
Posted Fri Feb 24, 2006 2:11 am GMT by markusgc
| lwestatbus wrote: | | This was a really interesting question. Someday I hope to have enough premium hands to have to make this decision. |
Dare to dream. It could happen to you!
Anyway, I've been playing Speed Sit n Go's lately and I come up on this often enough to ask...
Lot of chips in the pot, all limpers. Me in blind (doesn't matter much, small or big - well maybe it does, and I'm sure you can explain why) w/KK, or even QQ. Should I put a play on to get all them chips and hope someone w/A 10 doesn't hit on the flop?
I'd probably complete/check AA and try to push on the flop, especially if it was rags, but you know how 2 suited cards will fire up the masses. But maybe not, 'cause I'd feel pretty good about getting all my chips in with that hand. Stack size comes into play here too. If I had a big stack, then it's easier to push and harder for them to call. If I have small to medium, it's easier for them to call, but that's to my advantage as well, isn't it?
In these speed games, those chips in my stack and out of theirs is very important - heck in any game - but the blinds move fast and add up quick.
And before lwestatbus complains, it DOES come up for me almost every SnG. If it shouldn't, any advice on preventing it would be appreciated.
Posted Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:50 am GMT by arras
| markusgc wrote: |
I'd probably complete/check AA and try to push on the flop, especially if it was rags, but you know how 2 suited cards will fire up the masses. |
Bad line with aces! Raise preflop, don't give somebody with rags a chance to hit their two pair.
Posted Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:56 am GMT by tame_deuces
It's fun when you raise for the 4th time in a row and you just know the little angry guy in the corner is going to push with any two.
Posted Fri Feb 24, 2006 11:03 am GMT by Skribbles
| markusgc wrote: |
I'd probably complete/check AA and try to push on the flop, especially if it was rags, but you know how 2 suited cards will fire up the masses. |
Don't like this line at all.
Posted Fri Feb 24, 2006 12:21 pm GMT by markusgc
| arras wrote: | | Bad line with aces! Raise preflop, don't give somebody with rags a chance to hit their two pair. |
That's why I ask. Anyway, would you put 'em all in?
Posted Fri Feb 24, 2006 6:46 pm GMT by Skribbles
| markusgc wrote: | | arras wrote: | | Bad line with aces! Raise preflop, don't give somebody with rags a chance to hit their two pair. |
That's why I ask. Anyway, would you put 'em all in? |
First off, why would you give someone a change to hit BEFORE you push in?
Second, you don't have to automatically push pre-flop. If you think someone will call, then yes, push. Lots of times a push like this from the blinds looks like a steal and someone will call you out of spite.
Third, throw out a standard raise of 4xBB + 1 BB for each limper. If you get a couple callers, then push the flop or check/raise all-in on the flop. The raise all depends on the size of the blinds relative to stack size. If the blinds are 10/15 and everyone is sitting w/ 3000 chips, then you'd want to put out a raise of 200+ chips.
And finally, slowplaying AA against a full table is horrible. It may pay off sometimes but not as often as it should. If you are in a pot heads up, ie. you are in the BB, guy from MP raises and it folds to you.
Posted Sat Jul 15, 2006 2:36 pm GMT by 72o
Raising three or more good hands in a row preflop usually isn't a bad thing. Players who call you with marginal hands are even better. But it can get out of control. Then everybody starts to call your raises and you loose every respect. You end up in a lot of risky multiway pots and you have to play many hands to the showdown. This makes many moves, like continuation bets etc, impossible. Not to speak of bluffs. Especially in the late phase of a SNG when the blinds are big you want the blinds to fold to you after you raised on the button. You don't really want to see a flop with a rag ace. In such situations it may be a good idea to fold AJ and raise with 72 on the button next time.
A way to avoid this problem is to show your hand to the other players. But showing a strong hand after you lost it is a very bad idea. You will loose every respect. So you have to show it shortly before the whole table goes on tilt. But show your hand only rarely! As a good player you want to put pressure on your opponents. And in poker the biggest pressure comes from the lack of information. As long as your opponents don't know wether you are bluffing you put pressure on them. Once they know (not only assume) that you are not bluffing the pressure is gone and they feel comfortable with folding to your bets. This may be a good thing in rare situations but usually it isn't.
Posted Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:29 pm GMT by jimmer
I think the key thing to remember is your table image. If you bet/raise alot of hands and therefore win lots of small pots then fine, stick with it. However you need to realise by playing loose, sooner or later you hand will fall down.
There's nothing wrong with playing lots of hands. Just remember this;
on average, over your poker life, you'll be dealt the same number of good hands as you will bad. If you play lots of hands, you will eventally lose to someone who plays very few. (as they will only play premium (AA, KK, QQ, AK). In the short term you may win, over the long term, they will win.
Posted Mon Jul 17, 2006 3:11 pm GMT by Jefecaminador
| jimmer wrote: | I think the key thing to remember is your table image. If you bet/raise alot of hands and therefore win lots of small pots then fine, stick with it. However you need to realise by playing loose, sooner or later you hand will fall down.
There's nothing wrong with playing lots of hands. Just remember this;
on average, over your poker life, you'll be dealt the same number of good hands as you will bad. If you play lots of hands, you will eventally lose to someone who plays very few. (as they will only play premium (AA, KK, QQ, AK). In the short term you may win, over the long term, they will win. |
I'm going to have to disagree entirely. As long as you play smart, any style you play can be a winning style. Playing tight isnt neccesarly better than playing more loose. Especially if blinds are big relative to stack sizes.
Just because a tight player has AA doesnt mean they're going to make a lot of money off of it. If you're smart about it, and realize they're playing tight, you fold, and they take down the blinds. The same way you can if you raise with 72o and they fold.
The key to playing winning poker is not one particular style, but knowing what your opponent is doing, while trying to keep them in the dark about your own actions.
Posted Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:04 pm GMT by jimmer
| Jefecaminador wrote: | | I'm going to have to disagree entirely. As long as you play smart, any style you play can be a winning style. Playing tight isnt neccesarly better than playing more loose. Especially if blinds are big relative to stack sizes. |
Agreed
| Jefecaminador wrote: | | Just because a tight player has AA doesnt mean they're going to make a lot of money off of it. If you're smart about it, and realize they're playing tight, you fold, and they take down the blinds. The same way you can if you raise with 72o and they fold. |
Agreed
| Jefecaminador wrote: | | The key to playing winning poker is not one particular style, but knowing what your opponent is doing, while trying to keep them in the dark about your own actions. |
Agreed
However all your examples are dependent on table circumstances. For example the size of the blinds, table position and the strength of the other players.
You can't tell me that you could (as an extreme example) play every hand you were dealt, for the rest of your poker career and still beat someone who chose to play reasonably tight? Yes, you may show a profit in the short term, but after 50,000 hands, you'd have less money than with what you started.
After all markusgc asked | markusgc wrote: | | "If I raise pre-flop with a premium hands consistantly, does it lessen the value of my cards" Will people start calling with marginal hands?" |
The answer is Yes, but only because someone sooner or later will have a hand which is marginly better than his. Therefore even if you got dealt pocket Aces ten times in a row, you would lose a few of them. Therefore it will "lessen" the value of of his premium hand.
I totally agree with all your points, but question is based around the fact that other players are starting to realise his play is loose. It doesn't make a differance if a loose player calls, bets, raises or re-raises every hand, the fact is the rest of the table will notice this and tighten up. Eventally he'll walk into a monster and lose.
Posted Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:27 am GMT by snoogins47
I complete/check AA from the blinds pretty frequently.
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