Posted Sun Nov 27, 2005 9:31 pm GMT by AHBrownell
I tend to play low (22, 33, 44, 55, 66, 77, and 88) and medium (99, TT, JJ) in the following ways. I was curious if these are indeed the safest ways to play these hands. Any advice would be great. Assume average table with a few good players, a few average players, and a few poor players. Online NL at low limits (typically .50/1.00 and 1/2).
In early position:
I toss low PPs. I figure you need at least 5+ players in a pot to get the necessary 10x you need to make it profitable when you do hit your set - being in early position you do not know A) # of players, B) if a player will raise (or reraise another player) and this may create a 2-3 player pot unable to give you profitable odds.
I tend to just limp with medium PPs. Sometimes the flop comes all lower then 9 and you can bet the pot and win with TT or JJ right there. These hands have additional opportunities to win - so I generally try to at least see the flop (albeit cheaply) when possible.
In middle/late position:
I'm more inclined to play small pocket pairs here. But only if there are 3+ players in the pot. I prefer to get in cheaply, but if there is an early raise and 4 callers of that raise I tend to call as well because if I hit the pot, it will be large enough to get paid off in a huge way the times I hit my hand.
I like to limp with medium PPs here if there are many players in the pot (treating them the same as small PPs), but if there is only 1 or even 0 players involved in the pot I will often raise aggressively (4x BB) in hopes of either stealing the pot or getting heads up hopefully with a hand better than 50% to win.
In the blinds:
I tend to just call with both small and middle PPs against many players and raise against 1 player (or the other blind left to act).
Am I right to play these hands only selectively? Many people seem to think that every pocket pair is gold and should be played aggressively - though my experience suggests this is often unprofitable.
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Posted Sun Nov 27, 2005 10:00 pm GMT by supafrey
yeah you're playing pretty much common sense nut peddling ways with it.
nothing too wrong with anything you said.
how big a raise do you call? i.e. what's your max call with 3s? 10s?
Posted Mon Nov 28, 2005 12:27 am GMT by suitedaces84
| AHBrownell wrote: | In early position:
I toss low PPs. |
This is a limit thing. There's no way you should be folding them from EP in NL. You only need one player who is not incredibly tight. Their best feature is they are so easy to play in NL. You hit a set--you can do some serious damage, you don't--you move on with minimal damage.
A good rule of thumb is the 5-10 rule. If you have to put in less the 5% of your stack* you call everytime. If you have to put in more than 10% of your stack you fold everytime (if there are several cold callers ahead of you it may be okay to call more than 10%). If it's somewhere in between you have to make the decision based on your oppoent, your image and your history with that oppoent. If the guy is bad/views you as a maniac/you just bluffed him out of a big pot and showed your cards, etc should make you lean towards calling. If everyone thinks you're tight, you probably won't get paid enough when you hit so lean towards folding.
*Your stack = your stack or your oppoent's, which ever one is smaller.
Posted Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:24 am GMT by AHBrownell
Do you think that the 5-10 rule you talk about works the same in cash games online. I tend to play differently in tournaments then I do in cash games because I find that I like to play a lot more conservatively in cash games (similarly if I have a average/small stack in a tournament) then I would if I was average/big stacked in a tournament.
I have read a lot about mixing up play and throwing in weird drawing hands (including PPs - they rarely win without hitting the set) when playing, but I find online people are often less aware of image unless it is extreme (maniacs raising every hand for instance or rocks playing 2 out of 100 hands) and so it is not worth it. I also have found that sets are great, but nearly half the time they do not pay off enough if you only hit your set against one or two opponents OR are beaten by a flush or straight on the turn/river.
My strategy for making money online involves playing selectively aggressive, but very tight. I multitable 4-5 tables and I use the bonuses offered by various sites to make my small gains from playing poker enough to be considered "income." For this style I tend to not like to see flops for 4x+ BB with anything below QQ, AK, KK, or AK... (unless I am doing the raising of course). Even though bad players will play stupid hands - online play is tricky; I think its far better to just wait until I have a premium hand and avoid 50/50 (small/med PPs) if they are going to be expensive...
Posted Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:30 am GMT by tame_deuces
| AHBrownell wrote: |
I have read a lot about mixing up play and throwing in weird drawing hands (including PPs - they rarely win without hitting the set). |
Well, if you toss them from EP and at most limp with them, they will very rarely win without a set. :D
Posted Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:04 am GMT by AHBrownell
Deuces:
If you have a small/medium pocket pair you are likely 55% vs 45% in most situations. Sure I can see that you are ahead in these situations so you should technically bet, but I still don't like this play. The situations you are against a higher PP you are 20% to win, so I think in the long run you are less than 50% raising with any PP.
PPs are a great hand to make money off of - in fact sets are my most profitable hands - I just do not see the benefit of playing 88 like AK when you are less than 50% to win in the long run (due to the overpair situation that occurs from time to time)...
Posted Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:42 am GMT by tame_deuces
Ok...I'll try and illustrate with an examples about PPs not hitting sets...but I may be making some mistakes, so if anyone sees them, they better chime in and tell me!
I'm aware that calcs like these can't be done while playing properly, but just bet/raise flops that likely missed your opponents.
You are playing against me in a full ring game.
I'm in MP+1 with 100$
You are on the button with 100$ and a pair of 8s.
Folds the me. I raise 4x. Folds to you.
My hand range is probably along the lines of KQo,KQs,AJo-AKs,8s or better PPs (well, it isn't...but we pretend it is here).
You apply the 5/10 rule, with 4% and position, you call with your 8s. Blinds fold.
Two flops. On all flops your opponent bets 2/3 pot.
Flop 1:
2 5 T with two hearts. You have 50% equity in this pot if it goes to showdown, but you have 70ish % chance of having the best hand. Calling is wrong, because you have no draw, you should raise.
Flop 2:
5 T J rainbow. You have 30% equity in this pot, but a 55ish % chance of having the best hand. It's borderline and you most likely will have to play long-term before a raise pays off unless you get lucky. I'd probably fold myself. 
Now, this was against a player we set up with a fairly conservative hand range, which is not the best target for your PP to begin with.
Let's play against a drunk version of me instead.
Hand range: Any ace, any two facecards, any pocket pairs above 3.
Your opponent always bet the pot on these flops:
2 5 T with two hearts. 56% equity if it goes to showdown, 65ish % of having the best hand. Raise.
6 7 K rainbow. You have about 60% equity in this pot if it goes to showdown, and about 65ish % chance of having the best hand. With a backdoor draw you could call to see if I slow down on the turn/see what the turn brings or you could raise.
Also, in all these examples the opponent had a fixed continuation bet making any read on his hand imposibble. Your opponent was the aggressor which makes all decisions harder, if you were the initial aggressor you would find that all these flops were MUCH easier to play.
Posted Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:42 am GMT by JohnnyCache
The OP seems to have the concept of needing 10-1 in the pot to DRAW to a set confused with somehow needing x amount of players in the pot when you hit one.
If you can call for one bet or a small raise in NL and you hit a set with two in the pocket you can felt somebody with AK or something who hits a pair.
The key I think is not to worry so much about what position you are in if the table is loose - it's not always a question of IF your draw will hit but how much your draw is worth if it hits.
personally I try to ride the table along the wave - if it's a table of rocky players, I call the blinds with a little pp and try to set up. If it's the right time in the night, I'll make a 3x or 4x raise, thin out the hand, and bet the flop like I hit it (unless it's a stupid bad flop for me like 10 j q of a suit I don't hold).
It's a question of how well you can navigate what happens after the flop. If you are good at knocking people off a pot and good at telling when you're up against a shaky pair, you can make a lot of money with PP.
With nines and tens you are going to have TP a suprising amount of the time. You have 9 9 and get a 4 7 8 rainbow flop, for example - that's a great hand, when you bet that flop, who's gonna be in there calling you? 4-7? Your only danger hands there are 44, 77, 88, higher pp, and 56
Small pairs are heart breakers but if you are sitting waiting for the top five hands all night you are basically looking to make your money from free drinks.
Conservative hand selection is the first lesson most people learn when they set out to learn good poker - when to discard some of those selection rules is one of the last.
Posted Thu Dec 08, 2005 10:25 am GMT by UrAteUp
I have to agree with Johnny here. Mid and small pocket pairs have value.
Position I feel dictates what value they have. If I get a small or mid pp in early position and someone raises to say 3-4xBB then I may lay them down. If I can limp in with them to an unraised pot in ep or mp and see the flop then I will play them. If the flop hits and gives me the set then I will fire out a feeler bet of 2xBB. This will often keep someone playing TP in a hand and allow me to extract chips.
In late position I will see the flop on most any pp including 22,33 and 44.
Again if I hit the set then I am throwing out a feeler bet to see where I stand and to make sure there isn't a higher set on the board.
Just remember...sometimes you have to think and play outside the box.
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