Posted Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:01 pm GMT by UrAteUp
I am posting a hand that I recently played in an SNG. Would you consider this a good bit of hand trapping?
Single-Table Tournament
$1 - NL - 9 Seats 5678884-3 Holdem No Limit 20/40
Nov 24 15:13:14 : Hand Start.
Nov 24 15:13:14 : Seat 1 : THANKYOUALL has $1,840
Nov 24 15:13:14 : Seat 2 : bba33 has $2,960
Nov 24 15:13:14 : Seat 3 : Rossalr has $2,000
Nov 24 15:13:14 : Seat 4 : JUGS UK has $1,380
Nov 24 15:13:14 : Seat 5 : abigfan has $1,760
Nov 24 15:13:14 : Seat 6 : kikigranny has $2,000
Nov 24 15:13:14 : Seat 7 : msj420 has $2,160
Nov 24 15:13:14 : Seat 8 : splash-it has $1,940
Nov 24 15:13:14 : Seat 9 : solucky123 has $1,960
Nov 24 15:13:14 : splash-it is the dealer.
Nov 24 15:13:14 : solucky123 posted small blind.
Nov 24 15:13:14 : THANKYOUALL posted big blind.
Nov 24 15:13:14 : Game 3 started with 9 players.
Nov 24 15:13:14 : Dealing Hole Cards.
Nov 24 15:13:14 : Seat 5 : abigfan has Qs Qc
Nov 24 15:13:15 : Stakes: 20/40 Current level: 1 Next level in: 5 min.
Nov 24 15:13:25 : bba33 called 40
Nov 24 15:13:25 : Rossalr folded.
Nov 24 15:13:26 : JUGS UK folded.
Nov 24 15:13:28 : abigfan called 40 and raised 40
Nov 24 15:13:33 : kikigranny called 80
Nov 24 15:13:33 : msj420 called 80
Nov 24 15:13:33 : splash-it folded.
Nov 24 15:13:33 : solucky123 folded.
Nov 24 15:13:37 : THANKYOUALL called 40
Nov 24 15:13:46 : bba33 called 40
Nov 24 15:13:46 : Dealing flop.
Nov 24 15:13:46 : Board cards   
Nov 24 15:13:50 : THANKYOUALL checked.
Nov 24 15:13:54 : Stakes: 20/40 Current level: 1 Next level in: 5 min.
Nov 24 15:13:58 : bba33 bet 80
nov 24 15:14:00] : abigfan called 80 and raised 80
Nov 24 15:14:03 : kikigranny called 160
Nov 24 15:14:03 : msj420 folded.
Nov 24 15:14:03 : THANKYOUALL called 160
Nov 24 15:14:13 : bba33 called 80
Nov 24 15:14:14 : Dealing turn.
Nov 24 15:14:14 : Board cards 
Nov 24 15:14:14 : Stakes: 20/40 Current level: 1 Next level in: 4 min.
Nov 24 15:14:17 : THANKYOUALL checked.
Nov 24 15:14:27 : bba33 bet 80
Nov 24 15:14:29 : abigfan called 80 ( I was getting worried about a  flush at this point thus I did not raise here)
Nov 24 15:14:33 : kikigranny called 80
Nov 24 15:14:34 : Stakes: 20/40 Current level: 1 Next level in: 4 min.
Nov 24 15:14:35 : THANKYOUALL called 80 and raised 80
Nov 24 15:14:38 : bba33 called 80
Nov 24 15:14:38 : abigfan called 80 (Probably should have raised here?)
Nov 24 15:14:46 : kikigranny called 80
Nov 24 15:14:46 : Dealing river.
Nov 24 15:14:46 : Board cards 
Nov 24 15:14:54 : Stakes: 20/40 Current level: 1 Next level in: 4 min.
Nov 24 15:15:02 : THANKYOUALL has 10 seconds to respond.
Nov 24 15:15:14 : Stakes: 20/40 Current level: 1 Next level in: 3 min.
Nov 24 15:15:18 : THANKYOUALL checked.
Nov 24 15:15:18 : bba33 checked.
Nov 24 15:15:22 : abigfan checked. (Checked here could have been a mistake but I was betting on someone pushing)
Nov 24 15:15:26 : kikigranny bet 1,600 and is All-in
Nov 24 15:15:41 : THANKYOUALL did not respond and is folded
Nov 24 15:15:54 : bba33 folded.
Nov 24 15:15:54 : abigfan called 1,360 and is All-in
Nov 24 15:15:54 : Stakes: 20/40 Current level: 1 Next level in: 3 min.
Nov 24 15:15:54 : Showdown!
Nov 24 15:15:54 : Seat 5 : abigfan has Qs Qc
Nov 24 15:15:56 : Seat 6 : kikigranny has 3s As
Nov 24 15:15:56 : kikigranny has 3 of a Kind: Aces
Nov 24 15:15:56 : Seat 5 : abigfan has Qs Qc
Nov 24 15:15:56 : abigfan has Full House : Queens full of Aces
Nov 24 15:15:56 : abigfan wins 4,420 with Full House : Queens full of Aces
So lets have some feedback please. What would you have done differently?
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Posted Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:06 pm GMT by Skribbles
Very risky but turned out nice.
With the flush draw + a str8 draw on the flop I'd want to get things moving a little more. Then turn is definitly scary. Very possible that someone has KT or the flush. I would have bet out about 300 here and if any resistance, fold. Even when the river hits, you can't be sure that your safe. AQ, AJ and A2 are all very possible hands that have you beat.
Posted Mon Nov 28, 2005 4:40 pm GMT by racquet000
Wouldnt realy call it a trap. When your trapping someone most of the time you dont become worried about there cards because your basicly sitting on the nuts. The flop to trap it would have been better to smooth call. Raiseing 80 Gives you control of the hand. If you just call then he might fire out on the turn. But like it was said with that board and lots of draws i wouldnt trap. I would have raised the flop a little more. And the turn you had to play it scared b/c that card filled alot of draws.
Posted Mon Nov 28, 2005 6:18 pm GMT by bluef0x
Raise more preflop, to like 125-150 so you can isolate to the original raiser.
Raise more on the flop, to like 200-225, so you can get rid of any heart draws.
Reraise the turn, if you are afraid of the flush that's reason to BET. you don't want to give them the odds to call- otherwise you're letting them make correct plays. I'm not sure how much is in the pot right now but a lot of the times I go all-in right here- there's plenty of money in the pot and I'm going to give the draws incorrect odds. But at least reraise to 300
Go all-in on the river, you can't count on someone going in and I'm sure you will get a caller.
Posted Mon Nov 28, 2005 7:03 pm GMT by TxShadow
That worked out perfectly for you, but it was a little risky. A+anything already on the board would have you dominated (and I would have been afraid of that with all of the bets and calls). Also, if the board hadn't paired, a lot of times you're going to lose to a flush playing like that. Anyway, it worked so grats, but if it were me, I'd play my set a little more aggresively. Sometimes you can get all of someone's money the way you did it, but you'll get outdrawn just as much if not more.
Posted Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:52 pm GMT by racquet000
I think you played this hand extremly bad, And got lucky on the outcome. Sorry. Thats just the way i see it.
Posted Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:12 am GMT by Cyberhwk
No, min raises aren't enough when there's two to a suit on the board. I'm sure he GLADLY called you down and you're going to lose quite a bit if that flush hits.
Posted Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:59 am GMT by AHBrownell
Ok so I have some comments for you.
Pre-flop with QQ you should raise more than 2x the BB. QQ is a great hand, but overcards will hit the flop 30%+ of the time on the flop. Limiting the field is important with QQ and KK (although you do want some callers). The only hand I think its reasonable to do a small raise with preflop is AA because there is much less risk involved - though I do usually bet AA too...
Next you should make your bet on the flop based on the texture of the board. If a flop hits with a flush draw you should always bet at least 2/3 the size of the pot - even if you hit a set. Its important you do not give your opponent the pot odds to call a flush draw (without making a mistake). Think of it like this. If you had the flush draw yourself what size bet would be profitable to call. You preferably need about 3:1 pot odds to call a flush draw. If you bet the pot you are giving your opponent 2:1 pot odds - this means that flush draws are making a mistake to call you.
Ideally you want to be up against a hand like AK or AJ here because they would likely call this size of a bet.
To summerize - You do not want to trap if there is a dangerous flop - in the hand you posted there is a dangerous flop (both a straight and flush draw in fact) - bet and make it a mistake for an opponent with a draw to call you.
If you do bet enough on the flop and you get called the flush card hitting on the turn is not as scary because it was a mistake for your opponent to call you in most situations (A straight flush draw could call you and it would have been correct because they would have 15 outs or more, but you cannot expect your opponent to have this type of hand in most situations). When the flush card hits on the turn in your posted hand you are sort of screwed for two reasons. 1) You did not get flush draws to fold on the flop so you may be beaten now, 2) Any of your opponents holding the Ax will be afraid to call much in fear of the flush on the board.
It was great that the hand worked out for you on the river here, but really you were just lucky. The 85% you do not hit the full house on the river the flush beats you. And you were lucky that your opponent did not have a better full house.
Hands that you should trap on are hands were your opponent likely hit the flop, but you hit it stronger - in a more deceptive way. For example you have 4  4  . The flop comes A K 4  . In this situation a lot of hands will be more than willing to pay you off and you are very safe with your set up fours. This is the perfect situation to trap your opponent. With this flop I would check to an opponent or opponents who raised pre-flop or who I put on an ace or king. If you are lucky you will give an opponent the chance to raise and another to reraise - at which point you can call. You are giving your opponent the feeling that they are controlling the hand, but you are way ahead of them. This means that they will continue to bet (and believe they are ahead) on the turn and river. If you want to be sure you see some money on the river you can often bet out a small bet, in an attempt to get your opponent feeling strong to bet over you, at which point you can go all-in or at least raise and get some more money out of your opponent.
This is a trap.... Slow-playing a made hand in a situation where you are 95%+ to win the hand. You don't want to trap when your opponent can draw out and beat your hand!
I hope that makes sense; I tend to rant in my posts. 
Posted Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:15 am GMT by supafrey
| Quote: | . If a flop hits with a flush draw you should always bet at least 2/3 the size of the pot - even if you hit a set. Its important you do not give your opponent the pot odds to call a flush draw (without making a mistake).
|
| Quote: |
Raise more on the flop, to like 200-225, so you can get rid of any heart draws.
|
A flush draw on an AQx board? I'd NEVER fold to anything less than an overbet with my flush draw.
Posted Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:21 am GMT by tame_deuces
| supafrey wrote: |
A flush draw on an AQx board? I'd NEVER fold to anything less than an overbet with my flush draw. |
Yeah, but you have like a VPIP of 50. 8)
Posted Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:27 am GMT by supafrey
okay. let me correct myself, and change this to a hypothetical situation.
| Quote: |
Lets say we have 67d.
Nov 24 15:13:15 : Stakes: 20/40 Current level: 1 Next level in: 5 min.
Nov 24 15:13:25 : bba33 called 40
Nov 24 15:13:25 : Rossalr folded.
Nov 24 15:13:26 : JUGS UK folded.
Nov 24 15:13:28 : abigfan called 40 and raised 40
Nov 24 15:13:33 : kikigranny called 80
Nov 24 15:13:33 : msj420 called 80
Nov 24 15:13:33 : splash-it folded.
Nov 24 15:13:33 : solucky123 folded.
Nov 24 15:13:37 : THANKYOUALL called 40
Nov 24 15:13:46 : bba33 called 40
Nov 24 15:13:46 : Dealing flop.
Nov 24 15:13:46 : Board cards
Nov 24 15:13:50 : THANKYOUALL checked.
Nov 24 15:13:54 : Stakes: 20/40 Current level: 1 Next level in: 5 min.
Nov 24 15:13:58 : bba33 bet 300
nov 24 15:14:00] : abigfan ....
Pot: 400ish + 300 bet to you.
|
Check the stack sizes, the position, your cards and the action.
Anyone who folds here is stupid 99.99999% of the time. There, I said it.
Posted Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:37 am GMT by tame_deuces
THAT depends on more thing than stack sizes and texture...now we're just discussing implied odds and then we have to consider our opponent too.
I don't necessarily disagree but its wrong to say we should always be in this pot just like its wrong to say we should never fold.
Posted Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:49 am GMT by supafrey
I didn't say always. I said 99.999999% of the time for a reason.
Posted Tue Nov 29, 2005 1:53 am GMT by AHBrownell
I don't think I agree with that. I think if you have the nut flush draw then the implied odds make a call here a "good" play. But if you have a medium flush draw I don't think I agree. Although it doesn't happen too often, if you call and another player with the nuts flush draw calls behind you, you may lose a huge stack to that player when you hit your "winning hand." Implied odds are useful, but I do not think that calling a 2:1 every time with every flush is worth it. You are not factoring in the losses you will get the times you do hit and lose to a better hand...
Posted Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:00 am GMT by tame_deuces
| supafrey wrote: | | I didn't say always. I said 99.999999% of the time for a reason. |
Bested again! 
Posted Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:08 am GMT by Phil14312
What is with the min-raises. People, please, its ok to raise more than the minimum.
Posted Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:15 am GMT by supafrey
Thank you for explaining reverse implied odds to me. They don't do enough to change anything in a situation like this. call call call. calling is your greatest weapon. 
Posted Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:19 am GMT by Jauron
To be honest there is not a single thing I liked about how you played it. Most of the reasons have already been said, but I'd like to point out that even on the river where you had a chance to at least make up for you poor play before you decided to rely on the chance that one of the 2 remaining players left to act would make a strong move at the pot, you continued to play it weak. Played a big pair weak on every street and relied on massive luck to get someone to double you up..thats not trapping thats falling ass backwards into money. 
If it had been checked down on the river would you have posted this?
You don't mention any person involved in the pot who is wreckless enough to merit this type of play by you, you are not setting anyone up here, you are hoping someone goes after a pot that really isn't worth going after.
Posted Tue Nov 29, 2005 2:27 am GMT by AHBrownell
Wasn't trying to explain anything. Is it wrong to have the mindset that you can be drawing dead and that can influence calling? In addition, I also think that you may only be able to get a small amount out of your opponent when the flush hits.
Posted Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:04 am GMT by bluef0x
| supafrey wrote: | okay. let me correct myself, and change this to a hypothetical situation.
| Quote: |
Lets say we have 67d.
Nov 24 15:13:15 : Stakes: 20/40 Current level: 1 Next level in: 5 min.
Nov 24 15:13:25 : bba33 called 40
Nov 24 15:13:25 : Rossalr folded.
Nov 24 15:13:26 : JUGS UK folded.
Nov 24 15:13:28 : abigfan called 40 and raised 40
Nov 24 15:13:33 : kikigranny called 80
Nov 24 15:13:33 : msj420 called 80
Nov 24 15:13:33 : splash-it folded.
Nov 24 15:13:33 : solucky123 folded.
Nov 24 15:13:37 : THANKYOUALL called 40
Nov 24 15:13:46 : bba33 called 40
Nov 24 15:13:46 : Dealing flop.
Nov 24 15:13:46 : Board cards
Nov 24 15:13:50 : THANKYOUALL checked.
Nov 24 15:13:54 : Stakes: 20/40 Current level: 1 Next level in: 5 min.
Nov 24 15:13:58 : bba33 bet 300
nov 24 15:14:00] : abigfan ....
Pot: 400ish + 300 bet to you.
|
Check the stack sizes, the position, your cards and the action.
Anyone who folds here is stupid 99.99999% of the time. There, I said it. |
I strongly disagree.
The fact that there are people behind you still to act hurts.
The fact your not getting the odds- and even when you call most likely he's firing a 2nd barrel that won't give you the odds to call.
The fact that your flush might not be good if more opponents call.
The fact that your stack is too small (and his too) implied odds argues against a call.
The fact that if it is multi-way, and maybe if it isn't, someone has re-draws.
Situations:
1) You call, someone behind you pushes, raiser calls- You fold 'cuz you ain't getting the odds.
2) You call, everyone else folds. Most likely to happen if you call
A) He fires a second barrel and you fold when you miss, you fold.
B) He fires a second barrel when you hit...
a) he has redraws if he has a diamond > 7, set, or 2 pair- you ain't that big of a fav
b) you have a made hand- but he very likely has one of the above
C) He checks, you check- you got 2 cards for 7:3- pretty good
Eh I'm too tired and not making much sense/unsure of how to figure out the "math" behind it. But it definately involves math if you are going to bring in implied odds- and I don't think you have the odds to make a call here... esp with chip stacks and position.
Maybe I'll come back to this tomorrow...
Posted Tue Nov 29, 2005 9:53 am GMT by UrAteUp
Thanks for all the feedback. I do see where this was terrible play on my part. I have been studying this hand and checking other hand histories to isolate instances such as this. I felt if I pushed too much everyone would have folded.
I knew I had this hand though even if someone had an A in their hand. There was no other pairs on the board and unless someone paired their other hole card I had the strongest hand. I wasn't worried about the flush after the river hit but I can see I probably could have extracted more money then I did.
Thanks all for the feedback.
Posted Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:34 am GMT by supafrey
Well.. because Bluefox has been annoying me for days on irc, I'll post my reasoning for my hypothetical situation...
Just so we know what's relevant...
| Quote: | Lets say we have 67d.
Nov 24 15:13:25 : bba33 called 40
Nov 24 15:13:25 : Rossalr folded.
Nov 24 15:13:26 : JUGS UK folded.
Nov 24 15:13:28 : abigfan called 40 and raised 40
Nov 24 15:13:33 : kikigranny called 80
Nov 24 15:13:33 : msj420 called 80
Nov 24 15:13:33 : splash-it folded.
Nov 24 15:13:33 : solucky123 folded.
Nov 24 15:13:37 : THANKYOUALL called 40
Nov 24 15:13:46 : bba33 called 40
Nov 24 15:13:46 : Dealing flop.
Nov 24 15:13:46 : Board cards
Nov 24 15:13:50 : THANKYOUALL checked.
Nov 24 15:13:54 : Stakes: 20/40 Current level: 1 Next level in: 5 min.
Nov 24 15:13:58 : bba33 bet 300
nov 24 15:14:00] : abigfan ....
Pot: 400ish + 300 bet to you. |
At this point, BBA has about 2600 chips, you have about 1700, kiki 2000, MSJ 2100, Thankyouall about 1700...
But lets analyze the play so far...
When you have a hand like 67s, the point is pretty clear. As most people would agree, you'd want to have multiple people in, for relatively cheap. The more people the better, and you're playing for big pots. Nothing short of a flush draw, two pair, trips, or an OESD would really (or should really) keep us in the play.
Now lets get this straight...
First key point: We've reached the flop for only 2xBB, we're in middle position, with 5 players, AND have the flush draw. What else could we possibly hope for? Quads? Trips? Sorry, but that's not likely to happen. With the suited connectors, we've got to be willing to play a pot like this (Heck, we WANT it) and chances are if someone has a higher flush we're going to be willing to go broke over it.
Let me repeat - No, I'm not really scared of the higher flush. I'm paying it off about 95% of the time. And YES, I'm quite happy with the flop.
Second key point: A flush draw is bound to hit about 1/3 of the time when we flop the flush draw. The board hasn't paired, so we're quite happy to continue with our draw. Now ... someone just bet 300 into a pot of 700, and we have about 1400 left if we call..
Lets combine the two points...
(This is about half of the argument)
1. The preflop action happened almost exactly how we wanted it to happen, with alot of players and a cheap look at the cards.
2. The flush draw (which is, realistically, pretty much as good as we could hope for) has flopped.
3. After the first person checked, we've been given a bet that's less than our odds to hit the flush. (which we'll assume is very likely to be the nuts, but not necessarily)
EVERYTHING HAS HAPPENED EXACTLY HOW WE WANTED IT TO HAPPEN.
What more could we, playing these two cards, have honestly hoped for?
If we're not comfortable with our cards leading to (pretty much) an optimum situation in relation to the relative strength of cards, WHY ARE WE PLAYING THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE? .. but I digress. We have played them. And they're working fine.
Hence, the only reason we should fold, is if the future action forces us to.
Now...
With stacks behind us that are all bigger than ours, we must examine future action possibilities (which my compatriot, bluefa... er.. fox has done)
Most likely hypothetical scenarios:
1. They all fold behind us, and we get to see the turn.
Yayyy... We get to see a card for great odds. We're also in position, and there's a good chance (50/50? 60/40? 70/30?) that the person in front of us may check.
If the turn hits us, we make money.. (probably a fair bit, too, considering we only have about 1400 left in a 1k pot. A 400 raise and 600 raise on the turn and river would probably get the rest of our chips in, but there's countless other ways to do it. More than likely, we get called.
If it misses, we have a good chance for a free draw to the river, but he could also raise. A push (1400 more for us, into a 1k pot) would require a fold. Math says for us to call any bet that's roughly 500 or less... (assuming we could get the rest of our stack in on the river should it hit) ... I'd be confident that the majority of players wouldn't be betting pot size without atleast 2 pair. ... But.. what could our opponent have?
AQ would have likely raised from early position, or tried to thin the pot after 5 or so people are in it. A good player knows it doesn't play that well multi way... Ditto on AA or QQ... A2 would suck as well, and would likely push any turn. But would they limp in EP with this? Then call a min raise, still bet less than the pot on the flop? ... maybe, but I don't see it happening.
So we're much more likely to assume AK, A8-AJ perhaps.. even KQ, QJ, 10s-Js... These aren't hands that would push the turn (unless ofcourse they hit huge)... They would bet, and bet strong, but a push into someone that calls into a multiway flop? Doesn't seem like a smart idea to me...
Chances are, even if it misses, we get to see a relatively cheap river..
______
Other options:
2. We push on the flop. Eh. I don't like it, especially multiway. I'd prefer a call.
3. One person pushes behind us, and the two others fold, leaving the action back on the initial raiser...
If he calls...
we're being given ~4k in the pot, to call our remaining 1400 or so, if my math is correct. Math tells us to call, with proper odds, and a nice draw.
If the initial raiser folds...
So do we. =)
This would probably be the worst possible scenario, but one I doubt we'd see. The initial raiser surely has something, and would most likely call. If he does fold, we've lost a grand total of about 400 chips, with about 1300 left. Is it worth it?
In my opinion (professional opinion, kekeke) I'd say yes. Others may disagree. Cost/benefit analysis tells me that we did the right thing.
4. One or more of the people behind us call. Great! We've been given even better odds, and are still drawing to a flush that, if it hits, is likely to be the winning hand. Super.
This final scenario probably increases the chances of the initial raiser pushing on the turn, but also increases the size of the pot, giving us better odds on future draws - also making it more likely that we'd get called down should our flush hit and we make a move. I think these two pros + cons sort of balance each other out, with a slight edge in our favour. (Again, debatable, but I think so)
Anyways. Those are my ideas. I'm sorta just typing without an "outline" or anything, so I may have given a few small mistakes in my calculations and such, but I stand by the general gist.
And bluefa..ox... This is why i said "i'd just do it, and I don't want to tell you why". I do all this thinking in about 10 seconds or so, and rarely think of the reasons behind it. I know them, intrinsically. I'm just that good....
^_^
critiques are welcome, and expected. Be gentle kids.
Posted Wed Nov 30, 2005 10:42 am GMT by bluef0x
I don't think you're getting a free river even half the time. I play low limit SnG's and if someone leads out with a big bet- they are going to follow it up with either a larger (500) or push. I think you're only getting a free river maybe 1/3 of the time.
If someone pushes after you and the raiser calls... you're getting less than 3:1, if 2 people go all-in on this flop I'm going to think both have redraws- whether it be a flush or boat... I'd want at least 3:1 and still would not feel comfortable.
Calling and then folding would have been a huge loss of chips. I don't think you are going to get callers very often. Even at low limits I think the only call you're going to get is from a flushdraw- and even then usually the idiots play it overly aggressive. If they have 2-pair they probably push. I really don't know what they'd call here with.. maybe top pair but even then low limit people rather push then call off their stack.
I think for this situation to work out you would need some outstanding reads. On the "average" table- I fold this easily... there's too many negative aspects working against you. You would need to peg raiser as being able to slow down, you've seen him only fire 1 bullet a few times. You would need the people behind you to be very passive and hopefully one has been calling down the entire tourney with gutshots, etc.
Stating 99.99999999999% of people who fold this are stupid is wrong, your play *might* be correct if, again, you have some reads on the raiser and players behind you. If not- fold. Especially if you are like me and can play a good bubble... this isn't a cash game son.
But don't state 99.99% of people are dumb when there are definately valid reasons to fold this.
Posted Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:10 pm GMT by supafrey
calling is the right play.
How right it is (apparantly) is debatable. I don't necessarily agree, but am still sure that this is, in fact, the right course of action. Even if it's right by a 51/49 margin, it's correct.
EDIT:
And 3:1 is MORE than fine on these kind of hands... Flush draws with 5 people in and 4 of the suit taken up ... errrrr i don't worry about that too often. And even top two pair is sitting on 4 outs....
Posted Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:47 pm GMT by tame_deuces
We can however discuss the value of playing a low suited connector in an SNG to begin with. You play these hands mostly to get a fine draw in a multiway pot or run a semi-bluff with.
With the limited chips available in an SNG, the you would risk crippling your stack even with good odds on a hand where you won't win if you don't improve (unless you get your opponent to fold).
The importance of survival may mean that the EV of the amount of chips doesn't translate directly into cash value - in ring you can just reload.
Also at later levels, the relatively high blinds may make you simply lack the implied odds needed to play a suited connector. Ofcourse, situations may arise that makes you play them, like bullying, bluffing, blindstealing etc. but I rarely think you would play them in order to get a draw in a multiway pot you could fish for?
I don't have any calcs to aid me, I'm pretty much throwing out guesswork, views are appreciated.
Posted Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:23 pm GMT by bluef0x
This call still isn't 'correct' , you can debate as long as you want but it's definately not +cEV. I've told you why- you aren't getting 2 free cards very often- and when you do you aren't going to be paid off. If he checks the turn or river when you hit- he's most likely folding to any raise that will be of value to you (Of course he will call like 100 chip bet, MAYBE 200)
That's your strongest argument- the '2 free cards' when if you do hit you AREN'T going to get paid off that scenario.
So unless you have some immaculate reads- this is a pretty clear fold.
51/49 isn't even close to 'correct' in tournament play. I try hard NOT to make any +0.1-0.3% EV pushes... Why? Because there's a chance you put someone on the wrong range. Pass up the small edge and take the big ones.
Another reason to fold here is to protect your FE for the later stages.
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Tame: This was a hypothetical situation. In the structure I play- I don't play suited connectors. It's not worth it... only time I play them is in late stages when I push as the SB or button.
Posted Wed Nov 30, 2005 4:57 pm GMT by UrAteUp
Not sure what all the flush talk and suited connector talk is about here. I was playing QQ and hit the boat on the river. Yes before the last A hit the river I was worried about the flush and with good reason as the draw was there. However, if you look at the hand history I posted no one hit with the flush. Only trip A was my biggest challenger. So most likely either no one had a flush draw or it was mucked earlier in the hand. So I am not sure where all this flush talk and suited connector talk is coming from. Can't we all just get along?...
Phil, to answer your question, min. raise was 40. I could have really raised it up but I was slow playing the set of Qs. Got scared when I saw the flush draw possability. That fear went away as soon as the second A hi on the river to give me a Qs over boat.
Posted Wed Nov 30, 2005 5:26 pm GMT by bluef0x
UrAteUp, we are talking about a fake situation supa made.
But reread my post... you shouldn't 'slowplay' with a flush possibility vs multiple opponents. Minraising is bad- preflop and on the flop... and if you are scared of someone drawing you need to penalize them for doing so. You played incredibly weak here.
Posted Wed Nov 30, 2005 9:29 pm GMT by supafrey
I guess I just plain disagree with what you think will happen.
But a push behind and a call from the initial raiser is hardly the +.1% situation you're trying to make it sound like. In a hypothetical situation, the best course of action is the one that makes you win the most amount of chips, or lose the least. My line is solid, I assure you. Your extrapolations are purely from your "experience" with how you think you'll get/won't get free cards. I've broken down every possible course of action, and think that the one hypothetical of "everyone folds, and then initial raiser pushes with any non-diamond turn" isn't going to happen as often as you claim.
Posted Wed Nov 30, 2005 9:59 pm GMT by TheSalche
For once I agree with supa here. Most players in that hypothetical aren't going to push the turn unless they are strong players, they're going to try to keep extracting chips out of you.
Don't ever forget about implied odds here either. Just cause one call isn't +EV, doesn't mean you can't make it +EV because of the stubborness of your opponents.
In terms of the real hand in question. You CANNOT min-raise with QQ, and you CANNOT min-raise with middle set on a flush draw board. As great as it feels to slowplay a monster and burn some schmuck with two pair here, there's too much risk involved in doing so.
Look, slowplaying is an art form, and really it is overused because of the ESPN syndrome. When you slowplay, you need to either:
a. have position or
b. know your player well enough to know they will bet, then call a check raise giving them horrible pot odds
We can argue about exact amounts to raise to on the flop here, but I wouldn't feel comfortable with more than 1 opponent seeing the turn here with me.
Don't be worried about all your opponents folding. If thats all you worry about, you're going to play way too slow and you will be extremely obvious to anybody with eyes. If you always act weak when you're strong, and strong when you're weak, you will get pounced on by somebody good.
Posted Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:40 pm GMT by bluef0x
If you're going to claim implied odds and all the such as your main premise- you're gonna need to do the math. I think I did the math and it shows it -EV by ~325 chips... I need someone to verify though before I post.
Posted Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:15 am GMT by UrAteUp
| TheSalche wrote: | For once I agree with supa here. Most players in that hypothetical aren't going to push the turn unless they are strong players, they're going to try to keep extracting chips out of you.
Don't ever forget about implied odds here either. Just cause one call isn't +EV, doesn't mean you can't make it +EV because of the stubborness of your opponents.
In terms of the real hand in question. You CANNOT min-raise with QQ, and you CANNOT min-raise with middle set on a flush draw board. As great as it feels to slowplay a monster and burn some schmuck with two pair here, there's too much risk involved in doing so.
Look, slowplaying is an art form, and really it is overused because of the ESPN syndrome. When you slowplay, you need to either:
a. have position or
b. know your player well enough to know they will bet, then call a check raise giving them horrible pot odds
We can argue about exact amounts to raise to on the flop here, but I wouldn't feel comfortable with more than 1 opponent seeing the turn here with me.
Don't be worried about all your opponents folding. If thats all you worry about, you're going to play way too slow and you will be extremely obvious to anybody with eyes. If you always act weak when you're strong, and strong when you're weak, you will get pounced on by somebody good. |
Point taken Salche. I admit I played it weak here trying to trap. The only thing that saved my but was the AA hitting the board to give me a full boat.
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