When do you lay down 2-pair? |
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Posted Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:42 pm GMT by TxShadow
Sorry I don't have the hand history, but it's really more of a general question.
I was playing $25NL and the following situation arose:
I was delt A,6 and call the blind. Flop comes down, rainbowed and no real straight draw to worry about; and I got my A and my 6 paired. I bet out $4, everyone but one person folds, and he calls. Turn was a J, I bet $5 and get called again (now I'm pretty sure I'm up against another A, which I like). River didn't pair the board or anything and I push in the rest of my chips, get called, and he shows A,J.
Should I have played this differently? I figured I wasn't up against trips, or I probably would have gotten raised, can you really worry about someone else getting a higher 2-pair than you off their kicker?
I thought I was playing it aggresively enough to weed out anyone trying to draw out on me (which I did), and I had no reason to think my 2-pair wasn't good.
Note: When I say I pushed in the rest of my chips, I probably only had about $7 or $8 left.
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Posted Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:54 pm GMT by Soup_dog
I would have pushed after the flop but he probably would have called. I think you would have lost it no matter what.
Posted Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:00 pm GMT by zinn0
| TxShadow wrote: | | Should I have played this differently? |
Yes, don't play A6 in most circumstances. You didn't say what position you were in, but I'm guessing you were in early position?
The only time you should be playing this hand is when you have position against a weak-passive player, have an insane read, or are playing for blind steals from the button, etc.
| TxShadow wrote: | | can you really worry about someone else getting a higher 2-pair than you off their kicker? |
Usually, the only time you win with Ax is when you hit 2 pair or you are the only one with an A, which doesn't happen often enough to make playing it +EV. What really sucks, as in this situation, is you hit 2 pair and the other guy playing a more respectable hand in AJ hits his 2 pair.
A couple questions. Was this a raised pot? Were you in the BB or SB by any chance?
Posted Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:11 pm GMT by Soup_dog
| zinn0 wrote: | | TxShadow wrote: | | Should I have played this differently? |
Yes, don't play A6 in most circumstances. You didn't say what position you were in, but I'm guessing you were in early position?
The only time you should be playing this hand is when you have position against a weak-passive player, have an insane read, or are playing for blind steals from the button, etc.
| TxShadow wrote: | | can you really worry about someone else getting a higher 2-pair than you off their kicker? |
Usually, the only time you win with Ax is when you hit 2 pair or you are the only one with an A, which doesn't happen often enough to make playing it +EV. What really sucks, as in this situation, is you hit 2 pair and the other guy playing a more respectable hand in AJ hits his 2 pair.
A couple questions. Was this a raised pot? Were you in the BB or SB by any chance? |
good point zinn. I always miss the obvious answer.
Posted Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:13 pm GMT by TxShadow
| zinn0 wrote: | | TxShadow wrote: | | Should I have played this differently? |
Yes, don't play A6 in most circumstances. You didn't say what position you were in, but I'm guessing you were in early position?
The only time you should be playing this hand is when you have position against a weak-passive player, have an insane read, or are playing for blind steals from the button, etc.
| TxShadow wrote: | | can you really worry about someone else getting a higher 2-pair than you off their kicker? |
Usually, the only time you win with Ax is when you hit 2 pair or you are the only one with an A, which doesn't happen often enough to make playing it +EV. What really sucks, as in this situation, is you hit 2 pair and the other guy playing a more respectable hand in AJ hits his 2 pair.
A couple questions. Was this a raised pot? Were you in the BB or SB by any chance? |
I think I was in the small blind, I remember having to call, but I know I was in early position. It was one of those "I don't like this hand, but I'll limp to see a flop" type hands. Maybe situations like this are why you should almost always throw this one away.
And no, it was not a raised pot. Definately would have laid it down if it wasn't cheap to see it.
Posted Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:20 pm GMT by zinn0
I can't believe AJ limped in there. Anyway, once you hit your 2 pair, it doesn't really matter that you were playing a marginal hand, because it has become very strong. Just a tough break that he hit 2p as well. Next time think twice about playing Ax, Kx, etc. I would rather play 78s than A6...call me crazy, that's just me.
Posted Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:20 pm GMT by TxShadow
| Soup_dog wrote: |
good point zinn. I always miss the obvious answer. |
You were probably right too though, he most likely would have called with A and a J kicker. At least in that situation I would have had all my chips in witht he best hand  ; Would have turned out the same though 
Posted Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:30 pm GMT by TxShadow
| zinn0 wrote: | | I can't believe AJ limped in there. |
Me neither  That would have made my life easier.
I guess 2 rare things happened here:
#1 A6 got one of the best flops it could get (2 pair)
#2 Someone got lucky and got a higher 2 pair on the turn
Edit: I had "AJ got one of the best flops..." I meant "A6" - corrected
Posted Mon Dec 05, 2005 2:36 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| TxShadow wrote: | | I figured I wasn't up against trips, or I probably would have gotten raised, can you really worry about someone else getting a higher 2-pair than you off their kicker? |
That's not all you have to worry about. If the board pairs (7's or better in this example), then you only have two pair with a 6 kicker. You're behind every better A.
Posted Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:10 pm GMT by TxShadow
| Sean_in_NJ wrote: | | TxShadow wrote: | | I figured I wasn't up against trips, or I probably would have gotten raised, can you really worry about someone else getting a higher 2-pair than you off their kicker? |
That's not all you have to worry about. If the board pairs (7's or better in this example), then you only have two pair with a 6 kicker. You're behind every better A. |
So would you have just been checking instead of betting for fear of the board pairing? I didn't think the chances of that happening were worth worrying about in my situation, maybe I'm wrong though. I was hoping that he would lay his hand down more than I was wanting to go all the way to a showdown. I knew my hand wasn't great by any means, but I figured it was the best after the flop.
Posted Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:51 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| TxShadow wrote: | | So would you have just been checking instead of betting for fear of the board pairing? |
No, but I probably get my money in on the turn instead of the river. Either way, I likely go broke here with no draws to scare me off.
My point was just that being counterfeited is something to be wary of when you have top and bottom or bottom two pair on the flop. I've seen lots of people put way too many bets in a pot without realizing their hand is no longer good.
Posted Mon Dec 05, 2005 4:20 pm GMT by TxShadow
| Sean_in_NJ wrote: | | TxShadow wrote: | | So would you have just been checking instead of betting for fear of the board pairing? |
No, but I probably get my money in on the turn instead of the river. Either way, I likely go broke here with no draws to scare me off.
My point was just that being counterfeited is something to be wary of when you have top and bottom or bottom two pair on the flop. I've seen lots of people put way too many bets in a pot without realizing their hand is no longer good. |
Good point, thanks for the replies all.
Posted Mon Dec 05, 2005 5:13 pm GMT by UrAteUp
| zinn0 wrote: | | I can't believe AJ limped in there. Anyway, once you hit your 2 pair, it doesn't really matter that you were playing a marginal hand, because it has become very strong. Just a tough break that he hit 2p as well. Next time think twice about playing Ax, Kx, etc. I would rather play 78s than A6...call me crazy, that's just me. |
I can believe AJ limped in. I see AX limping in several times. The player might have been worried about a higher AX hand coming in or perhaps a PP. The point is in poker you should often expect the unexpected. One way to do this is like Zinno said, do not play A-rag hands. I see AX hands limp in to try to trap. They guy playing Ax or A-rag is usually the one who gets trapped.
BTW Zinno your crazy... 
Posted Mon Dec 05, 2005 8:05 pm GMT by tame_deuces
I would VERY rarely lay down two pair in a big pot with limited stacks left.
You can worry about someone having a better hand when your stacks are so deep you can lose a lot more money if you continue in the hand. When they are not, just worry about it, ignore your little voice and go down in a blaze of glory.
Yes, we can be up against a set...but against the typical range of a 25NL player we are ahead here more often than not.
I think the turn bet was too small too, you didn't describe pot sizes but a turn bet that is roughly the same as the flop-bet is very rarely correct since the pot has grown so much.
Posted Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:19 pm GMT by howzit
here's one. . .
1-2NL live,
villain: $770
i cover.
$5 straddled pot. 7 handed. i limp button w/4  3 
flop $(35) 10-4-3 two spades.
super aggresive bets $35, i call. head's up.
turn: ($105) 6x
he checks, i bet $80. i get check-raised to $300 even.
I ask for a countdown, i look at hte board, i look back at my cards think about mucking but then change my mind. figure there's a small chacne he's on a flush draw + straight draw and just picked up a pair. I move him in for his last $430.
oops. 5-2 for the straight.
Posted Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:12 pm GMT by TxShadow
| howzit wrote: | here's one. . .
1-2NL live,
villain: $770
i cover.
$5 straddled pot. 7 handed. i limp button w/4 3
flop $(35) 10-4-3 two spades.
super aggresive bets $35, i call. head's up.
turn: ($105) 6x
he checks, i bet $80. i get check-raised to $300 even.
I ask for a countdown, i look at hte board, i look back at my cards think about mucking but then change my mind. figure there's a small chacne he's on a flush draw + straight draw and just picked up a pair. I move him in for his last $430.
oops. 5-2 for the straight. |
Ouch . That one hurts.
River was a 4, right?
Posted Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:11 pm GMT by BeerWench13
I would've pushed on the turn instead of the river, but either way, it's a losing situation. Not much you could do except fold that hand preflop.
| Quote: | | I can't believe AJ limped in there. |
I limp with AJ all the time in ring games. If you limp with big hands just as you would with small hands, your opponents struggle to put you on a hand and you get a lot more respect when you do raise preflop. Hell, I limp with AK unless I'm 99% sure I can take the pot down preflop.
Posted Fri Dec 09, 2005 5:04 pm GMT by xhi
| BeerWench13 wrote: | | I limp with AJ all the time in ring games. If you limp with big hands just as you would with small hands, your opponents struggle to put you on a hand and you get a lot more respect when you do raise preflop. Hell, I limp with AK unless I'm 99% sure I can take the pot down preflop. |
I agree with you on the AJ, however being one who waits a long time for good hands, when AK shows up I want some money in the pot. So I want to raise preflop for a big pot which I have the best chance in a long time to win.
N.B. The above is particularly true if I'm playing in a game with people who play 43o and 52o, lol.
Posted Fri Dec 09, 2005 5:19 pm GMT by supafrey
For the love of god you don't want to win with AK preflop. It's a top 5 hand for a reason.
Posted Fri Dec 09, 2005 5:24 pm GMT by xhi
| supafrey wrote: | | For the love of god you don't want to win with AK preflop. It's a top 5 hand for a reason. |
Leave it to supra to state it much nicer than I could.
Posted Fri Dec 09, 2005 5:32 pm GMT by supafrey
lol. I state a fact, and then if someone wants me to elaborate they can ask ^_^
It's a pet peeve of mine when people ignore what's "right" and instead do what "they're comfy with".
Posted Fri Dec 09, 2005 5:41 pm GMT by suitedaces84
| supafrey wrote: | | For the love of god you don't want to win with AK preflop. |
sarcasm Because it's only a drawing hand. If you miss the flop you must check/fold it. You'll only hit 1 in 3 flops.
Edit: and when you do hit a flop you'll usually be behind and if not you're bound to be outdrawn by some stupid fish. /sarcasm
Posted Fri Dec 09, 2005 7:17 pm GMT by tame_deuces
I also want to chime in behalf of AJ and AQ...I know these hands get a lot of pepper but they're not exactly -EV hands to play, and I think they deserve a good sized raise unless there has been alot of action to you.
Posted Mon Dec 12, 2005 8:08 am GMT by BeerWench13
| Quote: | I agree with you on the AJ, however being one who waits a long time for good hands, when AK shows up I want some money in the pot. So I want to raise preflop for a big pot which I have the best chance in a long time to win.
N.B. The above is particularly true if I'm playing in a game with people who play 43o and 52o, lol. |
Every situation is different. I'll limp with AK usually in EP with a LAGGY behind me or when I know that I can sneak in with a big hand and have my opponents paying for it when it hits. Everyone says it's "right" to raise preflop with AK. I don't like doing what everyone else does. It makes me too predictable. I don't like definite rules when it comes to poker. I like the gray areas more where a player will think "There's no way she has big slick. She didn't raise preflop." and then pay me off. Sometimes I like to think outside the box. I guess I'm just a dumb girl who's trying to play poker using both sides of my brain and a little manipulation.
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