Online Tournies - How do you avoid playing too tight!? |
|
Posted Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:11 pm GMT by AHBrownell
I have started playing online tournies and have noticed that at least half the time I don't see hands that are in my mind "playable" with blinds that are 1/10 your stack. For example if I grab A  7 in middle position with no limpers I usually fold. (I typically would raise with this hand in late position with no limpers, call with many limpers, or fold it to a raised pot)
What tends to happen is that I watch the blinds go around 10 times without getting a hand which I am willing to risk ALL my chips on. For example, I was in a tourney today. Starting stacks are 1000 chips. I had 4500 chips, average stack was 10k. Blinds were 200/400. I have around 10x the BB so I am hardly short stacked, but any pot I get inolved in will typically look something like: I bet: 1200 (now down to 3300). Player calls. I miss/hit the flop - I would tend to bet 1/2-2/3 the pot here in a ring game (1200-1600 leaving me with 1700-2100). I deduce that if a player raises here I can fold - but over half my chips are in the pot so its a better play to just move all in... If I miss the flop I often am up against a decent sized stack who I don't think bluffing 3300 will work against a player with 20k (it is not enough to bully them to fold)... so I pretty much am forced to fold - leaving 1/4 my stack on the table. I only hit the flop with a hand with two big cards like AK, 1/3 of the time so 2/3 the time I will miss the flop and have to fold (losing 1/4 my stack). If I get lucky I will double up, but otherwise I will be blinded to death. I AM TIRED OF THIS!
I'm sure there is a better way to play then tight. Small-ball online seems like a dangerous proposition because people bluff more and you cannot read an opponent as easily as in RL. Time and time again though I find myself in this sort of situation - I'd like to know if anyone has any sort of strategy suggetions that may lead to more tournament success.
As a side note, I play "Lederer" style. Conservative, tight, aggressive. If I bet preflop, I tend to make a continuation bet on the flop. I play few hands or tricky hands in position or cheaply. I am a winner in cash games because I can play 5 tables and wait for good hands, but in tournaments it seems like waiting for good hands isn't enough!
Help! 
Did you know that participating in a poker forum can help you improve your own game? Be it by sharing experiences or simply asking for help, participation in a forum helps you focus and keep 'on topic' which will help you improve your game. You can learn from other players feedback and from their experiences. Why the THP poker forums? We offer one of the best managed texas holdem poker forums available, and the community within is far more friendly than those typicaly found on other sites. We've made a 'lurkers edition' of the poker forum available here on Holdem Poker Online, but we encourage all visitors to register and join in on the conversations on TexasHoldem-Poker.com
Posted Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:04 pm GMT by bluef0x
Uhhh, unless you fold QQ-AA I don't think you can play 'too tight' in an SnG.
Posted Thu Dec 08, 2005 2:16 am GMT by greathuskie
| bluef0x wrote: | | Uhhh, unless you fold QQ-AA I don't think you can play 'too tight' in an SnG. |
you made a grammar mistake
Posted Thu Dec 08, 2005 8:41 am GMT by supafrey
Are you talking about the "an" before SnG? Because, while the S obviously isn't a vowel, that is actually the proper grammar considering the way you say the letter S...
Posted Thu Dec 08, 2005 8:58 am GMT by zinn0
| supafrey wrote: | | Are you talking about the "an" before SnG? Because, while the S obviously isn't a vowel, that is actually the proper grammar considering the way you say the letter S... |
Quoted for truth.
On topic, like bluef0x said, unless you are folding QQ-AA, you aren't playing too tight, really.
I'm curious about your stats for these tourneys? How many flops are you seeing, etc? When you think you might be playing too tight, in actuallity, you may be playing a little loose if you're getting anted and blinded to death?
Is it possible you are coming in to see a lot of flops with marginal hands like A7s, or K9o, hands like that, missing the flop and letting the hand go?
Also, I just saw in your original post about multitabling cash games, have you ever tried multitabling SnG's? I usually play 3 or 4 at a time, but it would be more if I had a larger monitor.
And one more thing. You said something about AK with a shortstack. Once I get down to 12BB, regardless of what point in the tourney it is, unless it is bubble time, if I'm going to play a hand, I'm pushing pre-flop. Like I said, the only time I change this strategy is when there is someone who either has a shorter stack than me, or I think someone else is going to push behind me. That saves you from having to lay it down after the flop, and also makes the other players find a hand to call the push. It works well for me.
Posted Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:43 am GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| greathuskie wrote: | | you made a grammar mistake |
| greathuskie wrote: | | youve been playing this game for less then a year, yet you think you are the hottest shit of all time. no one on this forum likes you, take a hint, leave. |
Posted Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:48 am GMT by UrAteUp
If your playing tight like you say you are then your most likely not going to see a flop but one or twice a blind level. I know that is typical for me in my style of play.
Hands such as Ax are best played when your in position. If the pot has been raised to say 2-3xBB then I will stay in to see the flop. On more then one occasion I have flopped 2 pair and that's when the fun begins.
In an unraised pot with many limpers it never hurts to play anything that comes along. The pot odds are there from the blinds alone. You might be surprised at how many hands you can pick up.
I noticed you said you played HL style. I have studied the "Lederer" style and it is a good style to play under, but I feel we each must adapt a style that fits our own. I play depending on how players around me play. If I see agressive players who might raise often pre-flop then I will play very tight and only play starting hands in the top 10.
If I see tight players then I try to play in a style to take advantage of them. I will play hands in the top 10 in EP and MP and hands in the top 20 from LP. I raise often pre-flop and I try to steal more blinds. I want to knock players off of a drawing hand early. I don't want a suck out and it is going to cost them greatly to even attempt it.
The important thing is to play a style that your comfortable with and one that wins. If your not finishing ITM then look at your style and study hand histories. Look for chip draining hands or hands that you misplayed from any street. Then make changes in your style to cover your flaws.
Posted Thu Dec 08, 2005 10:03 am GMT by zinn0
| Sean_in_NJ wrote: | | greathuskie wrote: | | you made a grammar mistake |
| greathuskie wrote: | | youve been playing this game for less then a year, yet you think you are the hottest shit of all time. no one on this forum likes you, take a hint, leave. |
|
So funny.
Posted Thu Dec 08, 2005 10:55 am GMT by bluef0x
| greathuskie wrote: | | bluef0x wrote: | | Uhhh, unless you fold QQ-AA I don't think you can play 'too tight' in an SnG. |
you made a grammar mistake |
Ahaha, silly kid. Go back to playing your V-Smile so you can improve your english.
Posted Thu Dec 08, 2005 2:05 pm GMT by snoogins47
You know what pisses me off? People who say "An" before H words. And I mean "huh" words. Not like "an hour" but like, "an hysterical joke"
Anyway, to the OP... here's the short version: there's a lot more to poker than you want there to be.
That V-Smile thing looks right up my alley. Anybody want to donate to the Jake-needs-a-V-Smile fund?
Posted Thu Dec 08, 2005 5:04 pm GMT by supafrey
Ah snooG(GGGG). Our town idiot savant.
Posted Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:02 pm GMT by AHBrownell
Thx to those that posted.
Snoogins,
I realize there is a lot to poker - that it is a hugely complicated game. You have given me a similar answer to questions before and I realize that there is no "right answer" but their is likely a better answer than I have at the moment.
I'll attempt to give you more information and maybe someone can offer specific advice.
Unless I am first to raise I will fold any hand that is not AA, KK, QQ, AKs, AK, AQs. Hands like AQ, AJs, AJ, ATs, AT, KQs, KQ, JJ, TT, I will call raises with according to who the raiser is and my position. If I am first in with any of these hands in middle position or later I will always raise - with a few of them AQ, AJS, KQs, JJ, TT, I will also raise from early position if I am the first one in the pot.
If I can limp into a pot in middle/late position I will enter a pot with a small/medium PP, a suited connector, one-gap suited connector, or Axs (X<J) around 1/2 to 1/3 of the time I see these hands (usually will play these if I have favorable circumstances and will dump them otherwise)
These are the only hands I am willing to play. I have easily had tournaments where I have only played 2-3 hands out of 200-300.
Now If I do get a few favorable hands I have often become one of the chip leaders - usually I will place in these. The vast majority of the time I am forced to fold 100 or so hands and when I do finally get a hand its for all my chips. 
I would also like to note that every live tourney I have played in I have placed in the money - but online I very rarely do well.
Thx for the advice again guys. Much obliged.
Posted Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:42 pm GMT by JohnnyCache
Huskie. Bluefox. You don't like each other. Here's a thought. Don't talk to each other as much. Especially in other people's threads. How does that sound?
I think the OP was talking about MTTs.
My personal problem in MTTs right now is that I seem to tread water or make small gains, until I double my starting stack at roughly the time the blinds hit 1/15th of two stacks (IE I hit 3000 at the 100/200 level) and all the sudden I go from comfy to short.
It pisses me off to no end.
Posted Thu Dec 08, 2005 10:27 pm GMT by tame_deuces
| AHBrownell wrote: | Thx to those that posted.
Snoogins,
I realize there is a lot to poker - that it is a hugely complicated game. You have given me a similar answer to questions before and I realize that there is no "right answer" but their is likely a better answer than I have at the moment.
I'll attempt to give you more information and maybe someone can offer specific advice.
Unless I am first to raise I will fold any hand that is not AA, KK, QQ, AKs, AK, AQs. Hands like AQ, AJs, AJ, ATs, AT, KQs, KQ, JJ, TT, I will call raises with according to who the raiser is and my position. If I am first in with any of these hands in middle position or later I will always raise - with a few of them AQ, AJS, KQs, JJ, TT, I will also raise from early position if I am the first one in the pot.
If I can limp into a pot in middle/late position I will enter a pot with a small/medium PP, a suited connector, one-gap suited connector, or Axs (X<J) around 1/2 to 1/3 of the time I see these hands (usually will play these if I have favorable circumstances and will dump them otherwise)
. |
First of all, don't worry so much about what placements you have had online or not, that may change over time.
Now...I don't know what stakes you play at or what the skill-level of your opponents is like, but a problem with your very fixed strategy is that it is fairly easy to read, your hand ranges are almost robotic. Also your hand range is pretty easy to figure out for a somewhat observant player. If a player calls you with any two cards he would be correct in raising you on a rag flop with a lot of rags if he knows you will fold unless you hold an overpair.
With a very tight image you would typically use this image at times in the tourney to bluff and pick up pots, switching gears for a little while before you sink back to a more tight playstyle again. Also, with a very tight image you may often run into players who attempt to bluff you and then you have the added problem of sitting around guessing if your opponent is bluffing or if really has a hand this time.
You also need to be very aggressive...the backdraw is ofcourse that people may now attempt to trap you instead, but if you ask me, this is generally preferable. A trap is easier to sense than a bluff. Also remember that people _remember_ the aggressive player in an online tournament, this is important. Online people will generally give you little attention. Aggression is the easiest key to being remembered and feared at the table.
Nobody likes to steal the blinds of an aggressive player...and nobody likes to try and bluff an aggressive player either.
You should also use your image to steal blinds. I'm no tournament expert but from my limited experience I think blindstealing must be the single most important key to victory in a tournament. Blindstealing takes some guts and remember that sometimes, it will backfire...that doesn't mean it is wrong.
Player reads matter in tournaments, even online tournaments...I don't think it is any difficult quickly pegging out the typical hands I could expect to see from my opponents in an online tournament.
Looking at your hand-ranges I might just say that I sincerely dislike calling raises with hands like AQ, AJs, AJ, ATs, AT, KQs, KQ unless I peg my opponent on wide hand-ranges. Calling with high cards is like saying...'er...ok....I'll call...and if I miss I'll check/fold and if I hit I won't do much because...err...I don't know if my hand is good or not'
Also I might consider TT and JJ too good hands to simply call a raise with unless my opponent plays a very tight game.
Posted Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:49 am GMT by arras
A little off topic but I don't want to start another thread. I had been playing pretty tight in a MTT last night. Blinds started creeping up and I had lost a pretty big hand was down to 1100 in the small blind. Folds around to me and the bb has a little over 4000 and the blinds 50/100.
According to my interpretation of Harringtons book, I should raise AT here about 5 times the blind. Is this a correct interpretation? What would you do here?
Posted Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:57 am GMT by zinn0
| arras wrote: | | What would you do here? |
Push. Bluef0x, show the man.
Posted Fri Dec 09, 2005 10:27 am GMT by arras
| zinn0 wrote: | | arras wrote: | | What would you do here? |
Push. Bluef0x, show the man. |
I was re-raised all in w/ Q8 and he hit an 8. After thinking about it for a while I was convinced I made the right move, but it didn't feel natural. I was hoping somebody would agree with me today 
Posted Fri Dec 09, 2005 11:23 am GMT by zinn0
When you have less than 12BB, it leaves you very little room for post-flop play, especially once you raise it preflop.
You raised the pot, making it 500 to go. BB calls the additional 400. The pot is now at 1000. Even if you hadn't been re-raised all in, what would you have done after the flop that missed you completely? You only have 600 chips left.
Posted Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:22 pm GMT by arras
I raised with the intention of taking the pot right there, but knew if he played I was playing for my stack so I'm pretty much pushing any flop. The reason I brought it up is because I am usually tighter than this and am really trying to work on my mid to late tournament play.
Posted Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:19 pm GMT by UrAteUp
| arras wrote: | | I raised with the intention of taking the pot right there, but knew if he played I was playing for my stack so I'm pretty much pushing any flop. The reason I brought it up is because I am usually tighter than this and am really trying to work on my mid to late tournament play. |
Gadzooks man you can't push with Q8. Not even if they are suited. Hold tight till you get a better hand or get forced to play. I have done that on more then one occassion and actually have come back to win an SNG. Save the chips for the good hands.
Posted Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:21 pm GMT by zinn0
Ur, I think you misinterpreted his post. I had to read it twice. From what I can gather, arras raised with A10, was reraised all-in and he called, and the other guy showed Q8.
Posted Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:27 pm GMT by UrAteUp
Oh jeez. Your right Zinno. I did make a big misread here. Your right. This is a clear time to push. Give me an AX hand in this situation and I one of two things will happen. Either I will bet a small amount and get the BB to push me or I will push prior to the BB. But you have to for sure push and I would rather do it with an Ax hand then almost any other hand. If you get beat by Q8 with an AX hand then so be it but the right call would be to push with an A10 when your the short stack and faced with an all-in raise.
Posted Fri Dec 09, 2005 5:21 pm GMT by arras
Sorry about the confusion and thanks for the input!
Posted Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:51 pm GMT by greathuskie
so wait, you people say AN before you say sit n go?
ok, i think we have a bunch of english majors here
..
Posted Sat Dec 10, 2005 1:54 pm GMT by bluef0x
No one said "sit and go"
We said "SnG" "S, N, G"
Think
before you post
Posted Sun Dec 11, 2005 3:50 pm GMT by greathuskie
you dont type as you would read it you type as you would speak it smart guy
i *hope* no one here says SNG when they are speaking, cuz if you do you have more important things to be doing then playing poker
Posted Sun Dec 11, 2005 3:55 pm GMT by supafrey
I say SNG in real life.
Ditto with ATM.
ASAP.
... every other acronym.....
Posted Sun Dec 11, 2005 4:18 pm GMT by zinn0
| supafrey wrote: | I say SNG in real life.
Ditto with ATM.
ASAP.
... every other acronym..... |
Me too. We must be a strange lot supa.
Posted Fri Jan 13, 2006 4:33 pm GMT by Peteus
To add a value post to this I play as tight as you do when playing Tournaments. The thing is though once you get to mid tournament start picking up blinds by raising. The biggest thing about playing this way is to learn when to bluff. People will respect the hand you may not have. I can tell you sometimes I bluff unsucessfully, I have yet to fully perfect it, but I'll give you a hint.
I had a late game situation in which I was dealt TT..I was raised 2X BB and I called..The flop came out K J X..I put the guy on AKo the way he was playing..if he had KK or AA he definetly would have went all in or 4-6X BB..So he bets limit..I call quickly..Another rag..Min bet, I call quickly..Another rag and he bets min..I push all my chips in..He thinks awhile and folds putting me on a monster..
Did I have the best hand? Definetly not..But I could tell by his betting pattern that he didnt think his hand was strong..He merrited me with a good play, and he said he thought he had me but couldn't bring himself to call..
Situations like this happen a lot. You just have to find where to go ahead and push.
Posted Fri Jan 13, 2006 4:34 pm GMT by Peteus
I know its a month old thread but I had to add my input as I had that problem..
Posted Tue May 15, 2007 6:39 pm GMT by AHBrownell
Just was rereading through my old posts. I have to say I've come a long way. Its very funny to see myself talking about only playing premium hands in this post. I guess like with everything - all I lacked back when I wrote this was experience.
I still have a lot to learn, but at least its nice to see that I'm progressing in some direction.
Thanks for all the help everyone!
Posted Tue May 15, 2007 8:40 pm GMT by jeffonline
This is a problem that I think we all struggle with at some stage. This is the way I see it. Players learn a basic playing style they are comfortable with and with a lot of grinding can keep in front of the game, as you have your style, most of your poker should be played this way (I will call this the “RULES”).
However poker can be played outside the RULES. Playing outside the rules is more read dependant and the emphasis is less on your cards.
How to play and when to play outside the rules is something to be learnt but I don’t think you can ever be a great poker player if you don’t.
|
|
