Posted Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:17 pm GMT by tame_deuces
Revised edition with correct cards and actions. :D
Low stakes NL 6-max..I think maybe it was four-handed by now.
Villain has seemed sensible enough so far.
Both 100~BB
Hero is in the BB with: 6  2 
Villain is in the SB.
Folds to SB, SB completes, Hero checks
Flop: 9 6 K
SB checks, Hero bets pot, SB calls.
Turn: 2 
SB Checks, Hero bets pot, SB pushes. 
This puzzled me to no end....
What would you do and what reasoning would you use for a call or a fold here?
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Posted Thu Dec 08, 2005 11:18 pm GMT by Cyberhwk
Bizzare...
I'm just trying to figure out which hands that he would have made this play with that you now BEAT. I might put him on a higher two pair. Or a slowplayed set. That would be a pretty agressive play for Kx; pushing after someone had already bet the pot twice. MAYBE a slowplayed AK, KQ, KJ...but...
I'd fold (and probably flame him a little in the chat screen). Check/Cold Call, Check/Push makes me think he's pretty confident either in HIS hand, or in YOUR hand. Then again I probably loose a lot of money by being too passive.
Posted Thu Dec 08, 2005 11:44 pm GMT by suitedaces84
| Cyberhwk wrote: | | I'd fold (and probably flame him a little in the chat screen). |
What might you say?
Posted Fri Dec 09, 2005 2:21 am GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| Cyberhwk wrote: | | That would be a pretty agressive play for Kx; pushing after someone had already bet the pot twice. MAYBE a slowplayed AK, KQ, KJ...but... |
I don't think pushing with TPGK in a 4-handed game is all that aggressive, to be honest. The overbet looks like a) someone who doesn't want to get called by two clubs or b) someone with two clubs that doesn't want a call from a better hand. 
| tame_deuces wrote: | | What would you do and what reasoning would you use for a call or a fold here? |
Call. If I'm villain with Kx, I'm thinking top pair is pretty much a monster and I'll probably wait till the turn to pop it as long as something scary doesn't come. That offsuit 2 is about as benign a card as you would expect to see on that board. I doubt I raise more than pot though. In any event, I think you stack him off more often than not in this situation.
Posted Fri Dec 09, 2005 9:38 am GMT by tame_deuces
I was pretty torn here, I mean...the pot wasn't really that big before his push and bottom two can seem pretty weak, but then again if I start folding two pair fourhanded too much I might be overthinking my hands more than I should.
I also agree that pushing isn't _that_ weird fourhanded, but this pot was like 8BB big.
Well, following the good old army quote 'His men would follow him anywhere out of curiousity' I called, expecting to lose. Villain showed J9 and the river bricked it and surprisedly I watched the pot slide to me. Villain called me a fishy luckbox who would call and bet with anything and I silently agreed.
But I'm still in doubt if calling a 92BB bet into an 8BB pot with bottom two pair from a player who doesn't push much is a good play. 
Posted Fri Dec 09, 2005 10:02 am GMT by UrAteUp
Tamed,
Under the circumstances is was the right play. Perhaps next time it might not be. Villian put you on a pair after the flop. Judging by the lack of aggression he figured he could make you think he had a bigger pair. Good call and well played.
Posted Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:31 pm GMT by TxShadow
He called you a fishy luckbox? He's the one that was giving away cards like they were candy. He gave you a free flop, he checked the flop to you, you gave him another opportunity by betting, and then he called that.
He checks again after the turn, you bet out, and THEN he pushes.
Sounds like solid play to me  . If he's gonna decide to play J9 out of position, he should at least attempt to outplay you.
Well played and nice hand.
Posted Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:35 pm GMT by Cyberhwk
| suitedaces84 wrote: | | What might you say? |
Does it matter? Just grumble about idiots overbetting or something.
Sean in NY: Not to doubt you, as from what I've read you're a vastly superior player than I, I agree you'd push with TPGK, but what puzzles me is why you would check/call the flop, then check raise the turn with it? Wouldn't you be worried about a higher kicker if someone makes a pot sized bet on the flop? The two most logical plays with that, IMO is bet out on the flop, or check/call, then lead out on the turn. Perhaps someone could enlighten me? (And why wouldn't he have raised preflop if he had a King against only the BB?)
Posted Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:40 pm GMT by BeerWench13
Nice read, you fishy luckbox. 
Posted Fri Dec 09, 2005 3:33 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| Cyberhwk wrote: | | Sean in NY: Not to doubt you, as from what I've read you're a vastly superior player than I, |
I doubt that very much, but thanks for the compliment anyway.
| Cyberhwk wrote: | | I agree you'd push with TPGK, but what puzzles me is why you would check/call the flop, then check raise the turn with it? Wouldn't you be worried about a higher kicker if someone makes a pot sized bet on the flop? The two most logical plays with that, IMO is bet out on the flop, or check/call, then lead out on the turn. Perhaps someone could enlighten me? |
This might be a by-product of the fact that I play mostly limit and not as much NL, although I think the differences in building pots between the two become smaller in a deep-stacked NL game. Anyway, here's my reasoning for the line by street, assuming I'm holding oh...K8o :
Preflop: Playing heads up in the blinds, BB's check shows him to be pretty weak. I don't necessarily put him on any kind of hand here.
Flop: Given my show of weakness preflop, I feel it obligates the BB to make a play for the pot on the flop, and the texture of the board will dictate to me (in the SB) whether I need to push back now, or if I can wait till the turn to pop it. With only the flush draw to worry about, I'm willing to smooth call any flop bet and then press the turn on any non-A/non-club.
Turn: The offsuit two is exactly the kind of card I'm looking for on this board. Since my flop call could also be read as a sign of weakness or a drawing hand, I feel confident that any reasonably aggressive player in the BB will continue to bet the turn with almost any two cards. I can then come over the top, although I personally would not push all-in. I'd probably reraise 3/4 to full pot. If I get called, I'm probably beat and will make a smallish river bet to try to get to a relatively cheap showdown.
I use this line fairly frequently (check-call, check-raise) in short-handed limit games, because over time it helps to reduce some of my opponent's positional advantage. The more I do it, the less likely they are to bet behind me unless they have a hand that can stand up to a checkraise on the turn. Some players with short fuses will start to 3-bet with all kinds of trash on the turn, and when I have a real hand, I get paid pretty well.
| Cyberhwk wrote: | | (And why wouldn't he have raised preflop if he had a King against only the BB?) |
In a deep-stacked ring game, I'll limp occasionally just to mix up my play and especially if I think I can outplay my opponent postflop.
Posted Fri Dec 09, 2005 8:33 pm GMT by gol4pro
Without a read..... easy, easy, easy fold. NQA.
Posted Fri Dec 09, 2005 8:47 pm GMT by tame_deuces
| gol4pro wrote: | | Without a read..... easy, easy, easy fold. NQA. |
I agree, when I reviewed this hand history I _really_ wondered what on earth I was doing, this is also the reason I posted the hand.
Even if I fold a winner here I really don't lose much, and the question boils down too how often am I ahead.
Basically 4 things were in favor of a call.
1.) I had two pair fourhanded, it may seem like a somewhat stupid point as you can be up against a good hand in any sized game, but four-handed people tend to trust their weaker hands more, so he doesnt really need a monster to push here.
2.) Sometimes I tend to bet _alot_ and be very aggressive in shorthanded play. I know this can frustrate my opponents to the point were they just say 'k, this is it, this guy is full of it and he doesn't have it this time!'
3.) The deuce couldn't have scared him off a possible hand that I now beat...this is probably the most important point.
4.) Curiousity, and I mean it...I really wanted to see what he had.
And in disfavor.
1.) Potodds. 8bb pot. 92bb bet. Low two pair. Does not compute.
2.) My opponent doesn't push much.
3.) Low two can be sucked out on easily, so I won't always win versus an opponent that has a hand I beat. (This has to be taken into the equation when deciding to call or not if you think there is a certain chance you are behind and a certain chance you are ahead).
4.) Calling as a mistake is a much bigger mistake than folding as a mistake here.
I'm leaning towards this being a poor call, and I won't claim to have had a 'big read' or anything like that other than that the push seemed so 'odd'.
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