Trouble hands from the blinds ... |
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Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 2:45 am GMT by TheSalche
I've been playing a bit in NL cash games recently and I've been running into a problem with my strategy with trouble hands like QK, AQ, AJ, KJ, etc. from the big and small blind in an unraised pot.
From my SnG days I know to check/call preflop with these hands, and then bet if you hit, fold to a raise or any resistance when the blinds are small. When the blinds are bigger, raise/push preflop and try to take it down there, or play the same way. AK can also be played the same way in an SnG.
However, in cash games, the blinds are the same always, so whats the strategy here? Earlier today I had a hand that bothered me. I was in the BB with QK, 5 ppl to see the flop of: Q 10 5 rainbow. I bet, was min-raised, then a caller and I opted to call with the intention of folding unless the turn was a king or maybe a queen. Turn 7: I check, raiser pushed, other guy called and I folded. C/R showed Q10, and caller had 94 (what a joke???)
What are your guys' take on this subject?
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Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 3:21 am GMT by tame_deuces
Playing big facecards out of position in NL usually sucks, and it sucks worse the more players you get into the pot. It sucks the most if you happen to hit top pair and the action leaves you wondering if you are ahead.
In FL you often can't thin the field with a raise from the blinds, in NL you can. Raising from the blinds is entirely dependant on who is in the pot and the action to me, so it will vary from hand to hand/players to players. Some players are worse to play OOP against than others.
NL I personally tend to stay away from big facecards in (properly) raised pots, they only bring trouble, if I'm in the blinds with KQ in a properly raised pot&the raise come from a player I can credit with a legitimate hand I fold without a second's thought. I can't imagine I'll win a big pot if I hit, and since I'm OOP I will lose more if I hit and trail in the hand.
As for min-raises...min-raises preflop generally means:
1.) Hello, I don't know how to play poker. My hand looks pretty.
2.) Hello, please fall for the bait and raise me.
3.) Lets make the pot big in case I hit!
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 9:39 am GMT by suitedaces84
If you hit and are unsure about how to play it try checking and calling a bet on the flop. Then if the pot is getting bigger than you want it to be make a small donk bet on the turn, fold to anything other than a min raise. Then put a slightly bigger lead on the river if called. If the pot is not getting too big you can check raise the turn planning to fold to a re-raise. Then check again on the river. There are very few oppoents who will have the nerve to bet again without the goods. But checking and calling on the flop is the best way to keep things under control. It makes your hand very hard to determine. Your turn and river bets will be much scarier. I do this with sets sometimes.
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 1:48 pm GMT by TheSalche
good point suited, ill have to try that line next time ... ill let you know how it works out for me
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 3:49 pm GMT by UrAteUp
This is speaking from an SNG stand point. I personally like to play as tight in a ring game as I do in an SNG. Position is the key to playing any hand in poker as you know Salche. Hands such as KJ, KQ and others of this nature I will throw away in EP, MP or while in the SB. They only cost you money in the long run.
Small to mid sized pp I will limp in with. If the pot is raised slightly (2xBB) I will still pay to play my pp. If a flop comes out with no faces or aces and assuming I am first or close to first to act then I am testing the waters to see where I stand with a 2-3xBB bet. This tactic works well aos when the flop produces no over cards to your pp. Many times I have taken down AX hands because they put me on a PP or set in situations where no faces or aces hit a flop. If a face or ace does come out on the flop then I will check. If someone bets and it is a min. bet then when my turn comes around to bet I raise. My reasoning is pure deception. I want them to think I have them beat and force them to do one of two things. a) Give me a true sign of hand strength with a re-raise or b) fold.
Hands like AX or Ax, where the x is nothing smaller then a 7, I will usually raise with pre-flop. AX hands get a 4-5xBB raise with me. Ax hands I usually throw away in tables with 6 or more players. Most times the only way I will play an Ax hand is if it is suited. Otherwise whats the point? Too many cards can beat you kicker wise and you would hate to spend money to find out you lost to a higher kicker.
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 3:54 pm GMT by supafrey
Personally, I love KJ, KQ, QT and AJ and all those other "danger" hands. Postflop play is key.
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 3:58 pm GMT by UrAteUp
| supafrey wrote: | | Personally, I love KJ, KQ, QT and AJ and all those other "danger" hands. Postflop play is key. |
 ...more proof this boy just ain't quite right upstairs.
just busting your chops a little. hope your not taking it seriously... :D
Posted Sun Dec 18, 2005 10:15 am GMT by tame_deuces
| supafrey wrote: | | Personally, I love KJ, KQ, QT and AJ and all those other "danger" hands. Postflop play is key. |
This must always depend on _who_ is in the pot; What was his position, what is his range from this position? From his range you can find if you are likely dominated. From his aggressiveness you will know what it can cost to be out of position. How tough is he can tell you if he will lay down even if he is behind. It is stupid to be OOP in a raised pot against an aggressive player with a tight preflop hand selection when you are holding a hand like KJo or similar. Give me any PP, or if I'm looking for action, a couple of undominated low cards...why on earth enter the pot with exactly the hands that are likely to be dominated? In NL being OOP costs a shitload if you hit and trail.
It is easy to say postflop play is the key. But even in NL, it isn't like postflop play is some godlike ability to win...you also have to place yourself in good positions postflop, and the key to that is preflop decisions.
Posted Sun Dec 18, 2005 5:18 pm GMT by xDiamond_CutteRx
In FL, with big unsuited cards, I prefer usually just to limp in. If there are a lot of players to the flop, unless your game is tight, a bet or check-raise will usually not thin the field enough to protect your hand if you flop a hand like top pair, especially if there is an obvious straight or flush draw out there. However, if late position bets/raises and you think it will be checked to him on the turn again, you try for a check-raise when the bets get bigger... many players would cold-call two small bets with two cards to come, but not two big bets with one card to come, unless their draw is very strong (this play also forces weaker opponents to sometimes play incorrectly and call with draws they should not). The situation really has to be right for this play, but it can be profitable if applied well.
With SUITED big cards in FL, it's usually correct to raise from the blinds, especially with a lot of opponents, simply because you expect to win more than your fair share of hands. Plus, you usually get odds to take another card off on the flop because with a hand like KJs or KQs, you will frequently flop at least two overcards and a back-door flush draw.
NL is a different animal, because a check-raise on the flop is usually a strong play that will either force a confrontation or win the pot directly. These hands are tough to play because they are quite marginal at a full table, but with all the limping I'd say check/call, and bet or check-raise the flop if you hit. In a short-handed game though, I'd probably try to push my edge before the flop and raise anyway.
Posted Sun Dec 18, 2005 6:57 pm GMT by tame_deuces
Bah, I just noticed the question specifically stated unraised pots.
Just raise 'em. :D
Posted Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:27 pm GMT by howzit
stacks?
the deeper i am, the less i'll raise.
the weaker hte limpers, the more i'll raise.
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