Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 10:12 am GMT by zinn0
Both l+l=3 and gustoman seem to know what they are doing. I've seen some sneaky moves from both of them, and they are overall pretty solid.
PokerStars Game #3346400917: Hold'em No Limit ($0.25/$0.50) -
2005/12/16 - 00:13:26 (ET)
Table 'Titania V' Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: zinn0 ($30.15 in chips)
Seat 2: l+l=3 ($73.05 in chips)
Seat 3: Wigby ($47.80 in chips)
Seat 4: onegoodplaya ($47.40 in chips)
Seat 5: Manric ($55.75 in chips)
Seat 6: cor nic ($39.75 in chips)
Seat 7: funkyfresh76 ($21.70 in chips)
Seat 8: gustoman ($53.10 in chips)
Seat 9: flow124 ($34.45 in chips)
flow124: posts small blind $0.25
zinn0: posts big blind $0.50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to zinn0  
l+l=3: raises $0.50 to $1
Wigby: folds
onegoodplaya: folds
Manric: folds
cor nic: folds
funkyfresh76: folds
gustoman: raises $1.50 to $2.50
zinn0?
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Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 10:25 am GMT by supafrey
Raise to 5-6
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 10:27 am GMT by zinn0
Even with the original raiser behind me? Last time he min-raised he had KK. Not to say he has it this time or anything.
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 10:44 am GMT by Soup_dog
Hmmm.... I am probably too passive but I think I would smooth call with a raise and reraise in front of you. In fact, it may scare them.
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 10:51 am GMT by supafrey
Min-raises are crap. They don't really accomplish anything, nor give you any info. Re-raise to 5-6 and you'll find out in a hurry what kind of position you're in.
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 10:54 am GMT by zinn0
| supafrey wrote: | | Min-raises are crap. They don't really accomplish anything, nor give you any info. Re-raise to 5-6 and you'll find out in a hurry what kind of position you're in. |
I agree wholeheartedly that min-raises are the scum of the earth, I hate them, but I also hate to throw a lot of money into a pot in which I may be clearly dominated.
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 10:56 am GMT by supafrey
you think you're clearly dominated from a min-raise and a raise to 5x the bb? Errrr?
If someone minraised and you held jacks, wouldn't you reraise? AJ sometimes, just to see where you are? AQo? The range isn't as narrow as you think. And 5 dollars really isn't that much. AKs is the 3d best hand for a reason.
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:03 am GMT by zinn0
I said I don't like throwing money into a pot in which I may be clearly dominated. I decided to smooth call the re-raise to see what the OR was going to do.
flow124: folds
zinn0: calls $2
l+l=3: folds
*** FLOP ***   
zinn0: checks
gustoman: bets $6
After the OR folded, I felt alot better about my hand.
To answer your question supa, if someone min-raised and I held jacks, and no-one else has re-raised it before me, I'm re-raising all day long. I will also sometimes re-raise with AKo, AJ, AQo, AA, KK, QQ, JJ, and 1010, from any position and if I'm feeling saucy and have position, I just might do it clear down to 88.
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:21 am GMT by Soup_dog
At this point it looks like he is going to do your betting for you, you have position, and the flop doesn't look too scary (slight club draw there but it seems like he is betting a pocket pair to me.)
I would just smooth call and hope he keeps betting for you. If he tries to slow down then I would kick it up a notch.
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:23 am GMT by zinn0
Soup, I don't have pos. I was BB...
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:33 am GMT by TheSalche
i hate to say this ... oh man it pains me to say this ... deep breath
i think supa was right
:gasp:
re-raising preflop makes this hand a lot easier, you may be able to shake off the min-raiser if he has a lower pocket pair, suited connectors or some other junk that may become a hidden hand to beat you
not only that, most people who know what they're doing, will take a jump on this and push on the offchance you have JJ-QQ against their bigger pair, or may call with AK
if they push, then its usually a clear fold
take note that now that the pot size is bigger, the hand will cost you more to get you the information you need, where it would've costed you $5, it's now going to cost you at least $8.50
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:34 am GMT by Soup_dog
Ooops. My bad. Hmmmmm... that changes things. Considering your chip stack, you will probably be "all-in" by the end of the hand, even if you just call. On the other hand, if you push you may scare him off.
From his preflop play I doubt he has a set so the only hands you really need to worry about are pocket rockets or kings.
If you smooth call he will probably put you on kings and if he doesnt have that beat he will slow down.
If you raise and he comes back at you, then he probably has you beat or he's running a heckuva bluff... putting you to a tough decision.
I think I would put the pressure back on him and push all-in.
edit: Of course this is why I'm not a winning cash game player.
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:40 am GMT by supafrey
| Quote: | To answer your question supa, if someone min-raised and I held jacks, and no-one else has re-raised it before me, I'm re-raising all day long. I will also sometimes re-raise with AKo, AJ, AQo, AA, KK, QQ, JJ, and 1010, from any position and if I'm feeling saucy and have position, I just might do it clear down to 88.
|
Exactly. That's exactly what the person reraising to 5x bb is probably thinking, too. The range you've provided makes your raise with AKs a definite must.
I mean.. look at your position now. Soup dog is now saying that you'll probably be all-in by the end of this hand. Basically, he could STILL have the KK/AA that you were originally worried about, but now you have no idea what to do. A reraise would have given you more information. Would you rather be losing 5 dollars, OR would you rather just lose the 2.50 and now not know where you are with TPTK? KK and AA are still going to fudge you over here, and realistically, if you fold on the flop you're playing the third best hand in the game incredibly weak. What do you want, a set or two pair everytime?
At the very best scenario (a call or raise from you on the flop) you're losing ATLEAST 10.50 to find out what you could have done with 5 bucks preflop. Big difference, all to save 2.50 before hand? Why?
And as salche put so eloquently, I may be a dickhead, but I'm sometimes right. ^_^
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:42 am GMT by zinn0
zinn0: calls $6
*** TURN *** 
zinn0: checks
gustoman: checks
So now I am 75% sure I've got the best hand. I had planned on check-raising the turn, but didn't get the chance. There is no reason that my call should slow him down if he has AA or KK. I'm now thinking he has QQ-JJ. How much do I bet on the river?
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:47 am GMT by Soup_dog
| Soup_dog wrote: | | If you smooth call he will probably put you on kings and if he doesnt have that beat he will slow down. |
Well, there we are. Now you have the task of trying to suck as much as you can out of him even though he knows he is behind. Not an easy thing to do probably. I think the pot is about $18 right? I think I would bet another $6 and hope he thinks those are decent enough odds to call.
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:47 am GMT by supafrey
Well, basically you're screwed.
lol.
Best hand or not, a club or low card would make me nervous. A well played set would be screwing you now to. Either way.
Half pot would be nice.
| Soup_dog wrote: | | Soup_dog wrote: | | If you smooth call he will probably put you on kings and if he doesnt have that beat he will slow down. |
Well, there we are. Now you have the task of trying to suck as much as you can out of him even though he knows he is behind. Not an easy thing to do probably. I think the pot is about $18 right? I think I would bet another $6 and hope he thinks those are decent enough odds to call. |
You've now officially made next to no money with the 3d best hand in the game, while risking huge amounts should he complete his flush or have a sneaky set. Woo!
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:55 am GMT by zinn0
I can't give this guy credit for 2 clubs in this situation. Maybe I have no skill because I don't fear the flush draw. And maybe I played the hand poorly because I didn't get all my money in the middle...whatever.
*** RIVER *** 
zinn0: bets $7
gustoman: calls $7
*** SHOW DOWN ***
zinn0: shows (a pair of Kings)
gustoman: mucks hand
zinn0 collected $30.70 from pot
I also fail to see where winning a 60bb pot is making 'next to no money.'
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:57 am GMT by supafrey
my point is that you're losing a substantial amount of your potential winnings. It's pretty clear here that he had a hand like KQo or a medium pair (even as high as QQ, i suppose). You could have made more.
I think you played every street poorly, excluding the river.
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 12:03 pm GMT by Soup_dog
Well, the reason I suggested the $6 bet is that I don't think he calls much more than that. It's obvious that he knows he is behind at this point. I just want to try and make a bet that I think he will call.
Admittedly you are probably a better cash game player than I am, but you are willing to risk more up front in the hopes of a bigger win on the back-end. So I would assume this will give you much wider swings in the stack count.
Of course, I was planning on making the push on the flop so he probably would have folded and I would have won diddly. 
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 12:04 pm GMT by Soup_dog
BTW, thanks for the feedback Supa! He played this almost exactly the way I would have, and it's interesting to hear how it can be played better. Maybe one of these days I will start making money.
Oh, and zinn, thanks for the post! Made a boring morning at work more interesting.
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 12:07 pm GMT by supafrey
Zinn's also assuming that he calls the value bet.
Hypothetically, a strong player with jacks or queens could make the read here and let it go. You've now made a grand total of $8 dollars overall. Woo!
Had you raised to 5-6 pre, he'd call that, and you'd atleast be able to get a tester bet or check-raise on the flop... This would make you 12-14 bucks, minimum.
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 12:10 pm GMT by zinn0
I guess the UTG raise acting after me had me nervous. This is usually a auto re-raise. I admit it was pretty weak to show fear. Please don't make me chop off one of my fingers. I promise I'll play it more aggressive next time.
And Soup, glad I could help... 
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 12:11 pm GMT by supafrey
I'll take a pinkie, britches!
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 12:15 pm GMT by zinn0
Supa, that is just George Bush math right there. I made like $15 on that hand. Which falls nicely into your 'minimum'
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 12:19 pm GMT by Soup_dog
| supafrey wrote: | | Hypothetically, a strong player with jacks or queens could make the read here and let it go. You've now made a grand total of $8 dollars overall. Woo! |
Erm... didn't he make like $17 overall? The $7 + $6 plus all of the preflop stuff?
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 12:29 pm GMT by supafrey
.....
Exclude the value bet + call, and the pot is 16 dollars. 8 of it was his at the beginning of the hand. How much did he "make" if the river bet isn't called?
Please re-read what i wrote.
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 12:30 pm GMT by zinn0
Thank you for defending my honor soup. I'll dance at your wedding.
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 12:33 pm GMT by Soup_dog
| supafrey wrote: | .....
Exclude the value bet + call, and the pot is 16 dollars. 8 of it was his at the beginning of the hand. How much did he "make" if the river bet isn't called?
Please re-read what i wrote. |
Ah. Gotcha. I prefer to count the value bet though... because it probably would never have gotten that far with your method.
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 12:38 pm GMT by Soup_dog
Hey supa, tell me if I've got this right. By betting more aggressively near the start of a hand, you are going to win more hands without a showdown. But by the same token you are going to be folding to resistance with more money in the pot on occassion. With the style of play I was going with, I will see the showdown more often and get "sucked out on" more often right?
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 1:14 pm GMT by supafrey
well, that is true about your style, i suppose. But it's also much more likely that you're going to get owned hardcore by KK/AA.
What do i know, i just lost a buyin at nl100 in like, 30 minutes.
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 1:18 pm GMT by Soup_dog
| supafrey wrote: | well, that is true about your style, i suppose. But it's also much more likely that you're going to get owned hardcore by KK/AA.
What do i know, i just lost a buyin at nl100 in like, 30 minutes. |
Interesting. Ok, thanks. I will need to keep that in mind.
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 1:44 pm GMT by TheSalche
| supafrey wrote: |
And as salche put so eloquently, I may be a dickhead, but I'm sometimes right. ^_^ |
lol, no i actually wasn't implying you're a dickhead, just that we don't always see eye to eye on things (cause i'm a rock, and you're pretty far from that)
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 1:55 pm GMT by supafrey
whatchoo talking about. my vpip is like... 6.
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 1:59 pm GMT by zinn0
| supafrey wrote: | | whatchoo talking about. my vpip is like... 6. |
Wait a minute...I remember you saying once that your vpip was like 35%.
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 2:02 pm GMT by supafrey
<_<
>_>
35? i wish.
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 2:18 pm GMT by zinn0
http://www.texasholdem-poker.com/forum/t13204/why-am-i-so-loooose?start=0
I can't tell if your being serious or sarcastic with your thread here. Hell, I can't tell if your being serious or sarcastic 90% of the time.
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 3:19 pm GMT by UrAteUp
Always raise pre-flop with AKs. I don't agree with him on the size of the raise. Personally I like a 3-5xBB raise with AK in an min. raised or unraised pot.
After that flop I would not be slow playing my hand. He came in with a raise after the flop, then reraise him to see where you stand. If he comes over the top of you then he either has AA or a set. Unless the turn is a scarry card then I am pushing all in after that. He either has me beat or he doesn't. He will have to pay to find out.
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 3:41 pm GMT by zinn0
| UrAteUp wrote: | | Always raise pre-flop with AKs. I don't agree with him on the size of the raise. Personally I like a 3-5xBB raise with AK in an min. raised or unraised pot. |
I'll say this one more time. The only reason I didn't re-raise here is because UTG raised, and the button re-raised. I'm not sure what I'm up against, hence the smooth call. I think this is only like the 3rd time I've ever smooth called a preflop raise with AK.
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 3:50 pm GMT by supafrey
| UrAteUp wrote: | Always raise pre-flop with AKs. I don't agree with him on the size of the raise. Personally I like a 3-5xBB raise with AK in an min. raised or unraised pot.
|
The pot wasn't min-raised. I dont know what you're talking about =P
it was raised to 5bb at this point, and I'm saying a raise to 12bb is in order.
And the only part where I was "sarcastic" is my vpip of 3 business. lol. It's still up near 40ish in FL and a bit less in NL.
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 3:55 pm GMT by UrAteUp
| zinn0 wrote: | | UrAteUp wrote: | | Always raise pre-flop with AKs. I don't agree with him on the size of the raise. Personally I like a 3-5xBB raise with AK in an min. raised or unraised pot. |
I'll say this one more time. The only reason I didn't re-raise here is because UTG raised, and the button re-raised. I'm not sure what I'm up against, hence the smooth call. I think this is only like the 3rd time I've ever smooth called a preflop raise with AK. |
 ...calm down there son.... . Don't get your SpongeBob boxers in a knot... . I missed that part about utg raising and someone reraising. Ok so I feel you played it right pre-flop. After the flop though I am getting money into that pot to stop the draw hands for one and two to collect a big a pot as I can possibly get.
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 3:59 pm GMT by zinn0
| UrAteUp wrote: | | I missed that part about utg raising and someone reraising. |
Only the basis for the whole discussion, but it's all good...Anyway, let the record show that I go commando.
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 4:06 pm GMT by UrAteUp
| zinn0 wrote: | | UrAteUp wrote: | | I missed that part about utg raising and someone reraising. |
Only the basis for the whole discussion, but it's all good...Anyway, let the record show that I go commando. |
TMI dude TMI
(Too Much Information)
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 4:24 pm GMT by zinn0
You started it. I didn't want to be labeled as a 'spongebob boxer' wearer.
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 4:31 pm GMT by twofotisx
afraid that your Barney slippers would get jealous?
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 4:34 pm GMT by zinn0
| twofotisx wrote: | | afraid that your Barney slippers would get jealous? |
Your sister has no problems with my barney slippers. She goes commando too, btw. We won't discuss her tightness. They covered that yesterday.
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 4:55 pm GMT by UrAteUp
| zinn0 wrote: | | twofotisx wrote: | | afraid that your Barney slippers would get jealous? |
Your sister has no problems with my barney slippers. She goes commando too, btw. We won't discuss her tightness. They covered that yesterday. |
BIG Zingggggg....+1 to the little guy in the Cap America costume....
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 6:26 pm GMT by TheSalche
moderators please lock and delete this thread ... then take the server where it is stored, pour gasoline on it, chant a few "the power of christ compels you" and then burn the baby to the ground
and scatter the ashes to each continent
Posted Fri Dec 16, 2005 7:43 pm GMT by Aves
Definitely don't reraise prefop. You're OOP with a hand that will miss the flop 2/3 of the time.
Lead out on the flop, C/R the flop, or lead the turn. You need to do 1 of the 3. You most likely have the best hand, play it that way until he makes a bet that says your beat.
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