Posted Fri Dec 23, 2005 10:49 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
Or play it differently than this? 60FPP super sat to one of those EPT events...
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PokerStars Game #3418601507: Tournament #16589970, Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2005/12/23 - 22:24:06 (ET)
Table '16589970 43' Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: TINATEASE (5934 in chips)
Seat 2: silentcall (2604 in chips)
Seat 3: reefgossip (2555 in chips)
Seat 4: fishkiller2 (11428 in chips)
Seat 5: gnks76 (3360 in chips)
Seat 6: 1bucki (6835 in chips)
Seat 7: BadBoyMJC (4583 in chips)
Seat 8: SeanNJ (5062 in chips)
Seat 9: ToughComp (1655 in chips)
ToughComp: posts small blind 50
TINATEASE: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to SeanNJ  
silentcall: folds
reefgossip: calls 100
fishkiller2: folds
gnks76: calls 100
1bucki: folds
BadBoyMJC: folds
SeanNJ: raises 300 to 400
ToughComp: folds
TINATEASE: folds
reefgossip: calls 300
gnks76: calls 300
*** FLOP ***   
reefgossip: bets 200
gnks76: folds
SeanNJ: calls 200
*** TURN *** 
reefgossip: bets 200
SeanNJ: raises 900 to 1100
reefgossip: calls 900
*** RIVER *** 
reefgossip: bets 855 and is all-in
???
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Posted Fri Dec 23, 2005 11:01 pm GMT by Johny
I would have raised on the flop, maybe to 600-800. He bet 200 into a pot of 1350 which shows a lot of weakness (or a weird slow play). Now if he is weak it doesn't look like he'll be trying a big steal on the turn judging by his bet on the flop, so may as well make him pay for any draws or backdoor draws he has. Now it's a tough call on the river, although there's so much in the pot you might be priced in. Maybe put him all-in on the turn? It looks like he had something like KdJd, but his play his odd so he could have anything.
Posted Sat Dec 24, 2005 12:19 am GMT by Sean_in_NJ
Full hand is here.
I didn't raise the flop because the number of hands he could have that would be a significant threat to me were so few that I was satisfied to wait for the turn. If he has AQ, KT or a set on that board, then kudos to him.
Posted Sat Dec 24, 2005 12:32 am GMT by tutubird
Again proboly totally wrong, but K T or 7 8. I Don't really see a set or AQ because he didn't raise preflop.
Posted Sat Dec 24, 2005 1:00 am GMT by Phil14312
I've seen this line with QJ as well.
Posted Sat Dec 24, 2005 3:23 am GMT by Aves
Raise more preflop. There are already 2 limpers, so you need to make it 500 or 600 to go. Raise the flop or make a real turn raise. If they haven't already caught up by the turn, your less than 1/2 pot raise on a card that could give them more outs pretty much prices them into calling to see the river. By then there is so much money in the pot, you are almost forced to call getting almost 6:1.
Posted Sat Dec 24, 2005 11:03 am GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| Aves wrote: | | Raise more preflop. There are already 2 limpers, so you need to make it 500 or 600 to go. |
If I want to win it preflop, sure. But don't I want to get called by the hand that did?
| Aves wrote: | | Raise the flop |
No, I've already explained why I didn't feel the need to do that. If he wants to donk bet me, he's welcome.
| Aves wrote: | | or make a real turn raise. If they haven't already caught up by the turn, your less than 1/2 pot raise on a card that could give them more outs pretty much prices them into calling to see the river. |
Apparently, you did about as much of the math as he did. He was getting 3.3:1 on a call for half of his stack when he was a 4:1 dog. (*edit* I ran the numbers making the assumption I only have top pair, and if villain believes this, they're only a 2.1:1 dog. But, I'll venture a guess they didn't bother with my own two pair, set or straight possibilities. *edit*) The only way this is a profitable call for him is...
| Aves wrote: | | you are almost forced to call getting almost 6:1. |
Hence my question...does anyone fold here?
Posted Sat Dec 24, 2005 2:43 pm GMT by Iron Butt
Considering every freakin' draw on the board got there  , I definitely fold if he has more money. As it is I guess you're priced in. I'm probably all-in on the turn.
Posted Sat Dec 24, 2005 3:58 pm GMT by zinn0
I don't know if I can make that fold or not. With his push, it is pretty obvious he has the flush. I guess that's my problem. Everytime I make this call I always say, 'show me 2 diamonds', and they almost always do.
Posted Sun Dec 25, 2005 4:35 pm GMT by Aves
| Quote: |
Aves wrote:
Raise more preflop. There are already 2 limpers, so you need to make it 500 or 600 to go.
If I want to win it preflop, sure. But don't I want to get called by the hand that did? |
Raising to 500 or 600 is a standard raise, (i.e. not a raise meant to win it preflop),which means that on average 1 person will call(usually what you want); sometimes they'll all fold, sometimes 2 or more will call. Your small raise encourages multiway action, because most people will call another 300 after they've put in 100. (The blinds must've both had horrible hands or are both tight because I'm surprised neither of them called). Anyone that limped in with a pair will have the odds to call the raise and play for set value.
| Quote: | | Apparently, you did about as much of the math as he did. He was getting 3.3:1 on a call for half of his stack when he was a 4:1 dog. (*edit* I ran the numbers making the assumption I only have top pair, and if villain believes this, they're only a 2.1:1 dog. But, I'll venture a guess they didn't bother with my own two pair, set or straight possibilities. *edit*) The only way this is a profitable call for him is... |
It seems like you answered your own question here. If you do a weighted average of all the possibilities, your small turn raise prices him nicely. This isn't the main problem though. It seems like you made the small turn raise in order to force your opponent to make a small mistake by calling 3.3:1 on a 4:1 shot. Many opponents (especially in a low buy-in or freeroll tourney) are pretty dumb and will commit much larger mistakes than that. I would advise what many other people and myself included and make a real turn raise (i.e. all in). This will also eliminate the need to make the tough choice on the river.
Posted Sun Dec 25, 2005 4:41 pm GMT by Johny
| Aves wrote: | | Quote: |
Aves wrote:
Raise more preflop. There are already 2 limpers, so you need to make it 500 or 600 to go.
If I want to win it preflop, sure. But don't I want to get called by the hand that did? |
Raising to 500 or 600 is a standard raise, (i.e. not a raise meant to win it preflop),which means that on average 1 person will call(usually what you want); sometimes they'll all fold, sometimes 2 or more will call. Your small raise encourages multiway action, because most people will call another 300 after they've put in 100. (The blinds must've both had horrible hands or are both tight because I'm surprised neither of them called). Anyone that limped in with a pair will have the odds to call the raise and play for set value.
| Quote: | | Apparently, you did about as much of the math as he did. He was getting 3.3:1 on a call for half of his stack when he was a 4:1 dog. (*edit* I ran the numbers making the assumption I only have top pair, and if villain believes this, they're only a 2.1:1 dog. But, I'll venture a guess they didn't bother with my own two pair, set or straight possibilities. *edit*) The only way this is a profitable call for him is... |
It seems like you answered your own question here. If you do a weighted average of all the possibilities, your small turn raise prices him nicely. This isn't the main problem though. It seems like you made the small turn raise in order to force your opponent to make a small mistake by calling 3.3:1 on a 4:1 shot. Many opponents (especially in a low buy-in or freeroll tourney) are pretty dumb and will commit much larger mistakes than that. I would advise what many other people and myself included and make a real turn raise (i.e. all in). This will also eliminate the need to make the tough choice on the river. |
5-6x the bb isn't a standard raise, it's too much for pretty much any hand. Making those kind of raises with marginal hands will eat away at your chips for nothing.
Posted Sun Dec 25, 2005 6:18 pm GMT by Aves
It is when there are 2 limpers in the pot. (3 or 4 X the big blind + 1 for every limper).
Posted Sun Dec 25, 2005 9:03 pm GMT by Sean_in_NJ
| wrote: | | Making those kind of raises with marginal hands will eat away at your chips for nothing. |
My thoughts exactly.
| Aves wrote: | | If you do a weighted average of all the possibilities, your small turn raise prices him nicely. |
I haven't, but he surely didn't do it either. The real mistake was giving villain far too much credit. By the way, my "small" turn raise was for just over half his stack. If you want to make that call with 18BB left and with second pair and a flush draw, then you're invited to my game anytime.
| Aves wrote: | | I would advise what many other people and myself included and make a real turn raise (i.e. all in). |
In retrospect, I would likely do just that, but only because I think he will call and not fold.
| Aves wrote: | | This will also eliminate the need to make the tough choice on the river. |
The choice was the actual question from the start. I understand all the rest of it, believe it or not.
| Aves wrote: | | It is when there are 2 limpers in the pot. (3 or 4 X the big blind + 1 for every limper). |
Where did this magical equation come from?
Posted Sun Dec 25, 2005 9:22 pm GMT by Johny
| Aves wrote: | | It is when there are 2 limpers in the pot. (3 or 4 X the big blind + 1 for every limper). |
 If you really do use this method then you must not be making much money with your premium hands by chasing every one out.
Posted Sun Dec 25, 2005 11:07 pm GMT by Aves
| Quote: | | It is when there are 2 limpers in the pot. (3 or 4 X the big blind + 1 for every limper). |
This or something very similar is a very common raising method. If you are not raising along these lines, you are probly raising too little or too much (also depends on the tightness of the table. also, i usually cap my raise at 10xBB). Example: 4 limpers to you on the button, you have pocket aces, what do you raise to? 3xBB or 4xBB is way too little and most of those limpers will call without a 2nd thought(as well they should as you have given them great odds to call). I would make it 7xBB or 8xBB with any hand I am going to raise it with.
| Quote: | Aves wrote:
If you do a weighted average of all the possibilities, your small turn raise prices him nicely.
I haven't, but he surely didn't do it either. The real mistake was giving villain far too much credit. By the way, my "small" turn raise was for just over half his stack. If you want to make that call with 18BB left and with second pair and a flush draw, then you're invited to my game anytime.
|
The fact that it was over half his stack should not come into the equation much because if he had a 900 left after the flop, you wouldn't raise a 200 bet on the turn by 500 just because it was "over half his stack". Sure he's getting poor implied odds on calling either way, but my main point is you should make the play that is more +EV (i.e. the play where his call is the largest mistake) . That play in the actual hand would be a larger turn raise (pretty much an all-in raise). If you play at party, I'll be more than happy to sit down and play with ya. You can find me at the $200NL cash games.
you said,
| Quote: | | In retrospect, I would likely do just that, but only because I think he will call and not fold. |
This is what I've been saying the whole time. So it looks like you agree.
you said,
| Quote: | | The choice was the actual question from the start. I understand all the rest of it, believe it or not. |
What I've been trying to say is the best way, imho, to play the hand would have been to make the larger turn raise to eliminate the choice completely. But in your case, i would probly make the call.
in response to Johny4444
| Quote: | | If you really do use this method then you must not be making much money with your premium hands by chasing every one out. |
if you really don't use this method, you are probly giving people really good odds to play against your premium hands and you are losing more money and pots than you should.
Posted Sun Dec 25, 2005 11:26 pm GMT by Johny
What you said makes absolutely no sense at all. You actually make up to a 10bb raise with a few limpers in the pot? That's just bad poker. Now, if you had 2-3 limpers than a raise of 3-4 bb, than a raise to 9bb makes sense, but certainly not when facing limpers only. You want , I repeat, you want action with premiums hands, but you want to reduce the field without making the decision easy for them (super donk raises pre-flop).
Posted Tue Dec 27, 2005 1:55 am GMT by Aves
Johny4444 said
| Quote: | | What you said makes absolutely no sense at all. You actually make up to a 10bb raise with a few limpers in the pot? That's just bad poker. Now, if you had 2-3 limpers than a raise of 3-4 bb, than a raise to 9bb makes sense, but certainly not when facing limpers only. You want , I repeat, you want action with premiums hands, but you want to reduce the field without making the decision easy for them (super donk raises pre-flop). |
If you really believe this, you have some serious flaws in your poker game. What you are saying is the size of the pot has no relation to the size of your raise which is completely incorrect. This is the very essence of no limit holdem - you want your opponents to make a mistake by making a bad call. Yes you want action on you premium hands, but you don't want too much action. Again, i pose the hypothetical hand of 4 limpers to you on the button, you having pocket aces - what do you do? If you're raising 3~4xBB, have you realized that you're probly getting around 3 or 4 callers on average. You want to reduce the field to 1 or maybe 2 opponents.
I'm not really interested in arguing a point I know I am absolutely correct in so if you still feel I am wrong, I will let you find the light through your own practice and study.
Posted Tue Dec 27, 2005 10:36 am GMT by arras
Of course I only play micro limits, but Aves rule works very well for me. You will find that you get more calls than you think you would, but it also thins the field better when you have a bunch of limpers.
Posted Tue Dec 27, 2005 10:39 am GMT by zinn0
I always raise 3-4xBB regardless of how many people have limped in before me. I want action on big hands such as KK, QQ, AA. Raising 10xBB is insanity, and also makes you look like a donk.
Posted Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:32 am GMT by Johny
I understand that and in that situation a 4x bb raise is enough to reduce the field to 1 or 2 opponents. Your not taking in consideration that the first limper or two will have to make a bad call for the third and fourth limpers to make a good one. They'll be out of position and can expect to face a good size bet on the flop. I just can see how making a raise to 7-10x bb is good poker. It seems like you don't like seeing flops with strong hands, which is the part of the game. Learn how to play post-flop and it'll be easier. 
Ok,now here's an example:
Blinds are at 50-100
You 5000 with AA on the button
Limper 1 4000
Limper 2 4000
Limper 3 3500
Limper 4 3500
So there are 4 limpers in front of you making a pot of 550 (4x100+150).
You make a raise to 500 (5x bb because of 4 limpers) , making a pot of 1050. The first limper must now call 400 to win 1050, or 2.6-1 on his money. If he calls, he's making a bad call. The second limper must now call 400 to win 1450, or 3.6-1 on his money. Now the third limper must put in 400 to win 1850, or 4.6-1 on his money, great pot odds. The fourth limper has to call with prettymuch anything. But has you see, it took a bad call by the first limper and a somewhat bad call by the second limper (not knowing he was up against AA).
If my math is off or the whole thing doesn't make any sense just let me know.
Posted Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:45 am GMT by Sean_in_NJ
Actually, none of this matters in this situation. I had AJo. If I raise 6x or 7x the BB here, I'm only getting called by hands that have me crushed. I almost have to check/fold the flop if I don't win it right there.
Posted Tue Dec 27, 2005 12:04 pm GMT by arras
| zinn0 wrote: | | I always raise 3-4xBB regardless of how many people have limped in before me. I want action on big hands such as KK, QQ, AA. Raising 10xBB is insanity, and also makes you look like a donk. |
For the raise to be 10X you would have to have 6 limpers, which is not very often when you are holding premiums on the button.
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